MotorTrend Aug. 2007 THE KING IS DEAD! HOW INFINITI’S G37 BEAT BMW’s 335i COUPE!

A general discussion forum for G35 and G37 owners and a great place to introduce yourself to the NICOclub G-Series Forums!
dmkozak
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MR C wrote: The dealbreaker for me was how great it drives! The engine is phenomenal...tons of torque at low revs, zero turbo lag. Yes, a car is a total package, but most enthusiasts will judge a car based on its driving dynamics, not on sheer appearances alone.
Yes, no one argues the (initial) driving dynamics of the 3 series is what sells the car. Test drives are BMW's forte. But, if you take driving dynamics to the next level, the total ownership experience, that is where BMW loses so many of the customers which the test drive brought in. Having to replace runflat tires much more often at a price 50% than their goflat counterparts. Having to pay for a dealer installed alarm. Having to pay for a dealer installed bluetooth. Having to pay for a dealer installed iPod interface. Not being able to check your own oil level (NO DIPSTICK!). BMW wants their customers to be less involved with the car than any other manufacturer. Even replacing your brakepads with Hawks or your shocks with Bilsteins will get you a warning that BMWNA believes the OEM products are the absolute best for your BMW and any deviation will hurt your car's performance, longevity, etc. In fact, BMWNA has issued warnings to dealers to tell customers who replaced the runflats with goflats that the customers need to go back to the OEM runflats to obtain BMW roadside assistance for tire problems and BMWNA warranty coverage for any problems relating to the tires, such as suspension, alignment, braking, power delivery, etc. For many, these points make no difference whatsoever. For others, like me, who like to select our own tires (no, I won't like the 050's any better on the G37 than on the 335i), shocks, brake pads, etc., plus like to be able to check our own oil level, these points make a BMW so undesireable as to cause us to look elsewhere. Yes, the driving dynamics are first rate (but so are the G's driving dynamics), but to many to G "ownership package" is better than the BMW's.


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audtatious
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picus wrote:I really dislike when modding becomes a comparative topic. Of course adding FI to the G would make it more powerful, then again we both know even a *CHEAP* FI setup will be in the 8-10k range, whereas with the 335i you can buy a $1200 chip and be putting down 375jp/410tq to the wheels, which is about what FI'ing a G will get you. See? Playing the "my mods are bigger than your mods" game is just an endless battle. Fact is, you get a better rate on return modding an FI car; but with either you risk warranty issues, etc..
My intent was not playing the "my mods are bigger than your mods" game. Simply stating that with the $7500 saved, FI could be had to "equal" the price of the 335. The TT Greddy system is <$7k and the Stillen stage-1 SC is <$6k. Each are base-line capable of 380+whp on the old VQ35DE. Thus, for around the same price as the stock BMW you have a better performer, which was my whole point. You are absolutely correct about the warranty if something goes wrong due to aftermarket boost.

MR C
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dmkozak wrote:Having to replace runflat tires much more often at a price 50% than their goflat counterparts. Having to pay for a dealer installed alarm. Having to pay for a dealer installed bluetooth. Having to pay for a dealer installed iPod interface. Not being able to check your own oil level (NO DIPSTICK!). BMW wants their customers to be less involved with the car than any other manufacturer.
dmkozak, I agree with you 100% on these points. It is irksome, though somewhat understandable, that BMWNA would frown upon aftermarket performance upgrades. After all, that is why they have an M division, is probably what they'd tell you.

Nonetheless, the fact lies in the numbers. BMW has taken this take-it-or-leave-it stance because they can, and the buying public has and will continue to buy their cars in spite of it. Just take a look at the sales volumes of the 3 series; I think I read somewhere that 3 series sales have exceeded the C-class and IS combined over the last 2 years. Most 'non-enthusiast' carbuyers will listen to some of the gimmicks (RFTs only, no oil dipstick, etc.) and gobble it up. For me personally, I have already changed out the tires, and I will upgrade the car as I see fit regardless of BMWNA's supposed threats.

Out of curiosity, how have sales of the G35 been? I imagine right up there with the 3er?

J-Owner
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Ok.....perhaps I shouldn't have said the BMW coupe is a POS (I still think it is drab and boring though).

I never said that I thought the G is the ultimate car and everyone who doesn't have one is uncool. what I said was I would pick the G but I was speaking in terms of overall experience.

I have owned four infiniti's and I have an excellent relationship with my service advisor so .....what I meant was there is nothing BMW has to offer (including maintenence plans) that appeal to me enough to buy one.

The BMW is a good car if it wasn't people wouldn't buy it. Why are BMW 3 series sales so high? I personally would guess it is the socially driven status symbol factor (for most people but not all) and the entry level BMW is the 3 series just like people by that C class hatchback mercedes to say they own a mercedes.

And no I am not comparing a 3 series to a c Class hatchback. that Benze is a POS.

I am just saying I would venture to say that that is why the majority of people at least in dallas buy a 3 series. If and this is a big if I chose to buy a BMW I like the 5 series.

When I drove the BMW coupe I was just expecting a much better experience and the car did not ride terribly it rode fine but I can't put my finger on it I was just expecting more for the price. I really felt that it was a drab car.

I just prefer the G and the G37 was comfortable, nice interior, tight, no rattles, nice finish, good acceleration, great cornering, etc. I mean Infiniti's aren't the only cars I like, I also have an '07 CLS but I generally stay away from the "Mercedes Talk" as this is an Infiniti forum and I have owned more infiniti's than any other brand.

I just like them. I guess I will agree to disagree. I just DID NOT like the E90 forum so I think I will stay away from it in an effort to keep my blood pressure down.

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torbach1
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dmkozak - well said. That is exactly right, and the reason I switched from my '06 BMW 330i to the '07 G35 (which I prefer to the 330i for a number of reasons as a car, but far prefer the Infiniti ownership experience). I have had BMW's before, but my local dealership has only become worse in the last few years to the point where it's difficult to get an appointment less than 4 weeks ahead and so on.

When I had a bearing problem, the dealership initially told me it was a problem with the run flat tires that had become very noisy and that because these are faulty, BMW is willing to cover 50% of the remaining value of these tires.... It turns out that it wasn't the tires, and it was the bearings instead, but it's things like that - they put bad tires on their cars and then don't cover replacing them. Another example, relating to the same problem is that they took 3 service attempts (and 8 weeks total time passing) to fix one relatively simple problem (bad bearings) that I personally diagnosed on my first visit there and told them as much, and then proceed to not even start working on my car the first day it's in for the 3rd service to fix this same problem (sorry, we ran out of time and didn't get to your car)... These things make the total ownership experience of a BMW not so great these days unless you're one of the lucky few who lives near a better BMW service department. These are the things that make people like me switch from BMW.

And perhaps BMW is still outselling the G, but a lot more of that these days is in my view because of many badge whores out there than because BMW's are still so much better as driver cars than their competition. A couple of years ago I would have just dealt with the crappy service because I wouldn't be able to find a car that drives anywhere near as nicely as my bimmer. Now I no longer have that problem thanks to Infiniti (and there are others who are working on this too). BMW's are still phenomenal to drive, and they still set the direction that everyone tries to beat. But they're not so far ahead of others any more, and now in the next few years is the time that they will start losing some of their sales share if they're not careful and/or don't start treating their customers with more respect, and not just focusing on building great cars.

Also, on a completely different topic - folks mention the included maintenance a lot on E90post and on bimmerfest in discussing some of the advantages of the BMW over Infiniti. The BMW maintenance program has them doin an oil and filter change only at 15k miles (if your computer says the car needs it at that point), and it's hardly worth more than a few hundred $ at the end of the day.

The Infiniti dealer that I got mine from has a 2 year program where all maintenance is included, and they let you come in for free oil changes as often as you like. The sales person set my oil change interval to every 3500 miles... This 2 year deal also includes the 30k miles service. No additional cost - it's just included in the deal. If you live in the DC metro area, check them out - Infiniti of Chantilly - speak to George Khalil - he's great.

Regards,Tamir

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AZhitman
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I am enjoying your posts a TON, Tamir.

Thanks. Just thanks.

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audtatious
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BMW sucks...I mean, really....

I'm kidding....debate has slowed down and I'm stirring the pot for fun

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G_whizz
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A great read Tamir!

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even without a dip stick you can still check your oil. you do it trough the i drive. and if you dont have an i drive, you do it through the cluster. as far as the runflats making noise, if you are under 10k miles, the tires are fully covered. if you are between 10 and 20k, you pay for 2 tires. the other 2, and all labor is paid for by bmw.

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torbach1
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Regarding the run flat tire issue, the way my service advisor put it:

"the tire noise is a known issue and it can get really bad. You will have to call BMW customer service to see what they are willing to do to help, and while they may be willing to pay for some of the cost of replacing the tires including the labor, they won't pay for all of it"

Having said that, it didn't end up being the tires in my case, but rather the bearings, so I didn't get to call BMW. With the scenario that you mentioned of them paying for 2 of the 4 tires, I guess I would have been ok with that if my tires had between 10 and 20k. At the time, I had been using winter wheels and the tires had no more than 8000 miles on them, so I guess if the noise was from the tires, BMW would have covered the full replacement cost.

Regards,Tamir

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AZhitman
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That would be one of the FIRST mods I'd do to the car, is ditch the run-flats.

In all actuality, most high-quality low-profile tires function the same as a run-flat... I had a 275/30/20 with a monster gash in it, and there was no danger of rim touching ground (at reasonable speeds).

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audtatious
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Same with the 235-40-18's I had. Blew out while doing 80 in the fast lane of a busy 4-lane highway. Took me 3/4+ mile to finally get over to the E-lane. No rim damage at all. If I had been on a slower road I would have kept driving it. The flat before that one I drove 10 mile home (30-40mph zones) on the same type tire.

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you can drive a lot farther on a lat runflat, then you can on a flat anything else.

my big gripe with them from a serviceable stand is that you can not plug them. from a performance side, they are heavy as hell, especially dunlops.

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audtatious
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I agree. The question is "why would you want to?".

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That's my beef with them too - the weight.

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audtatious wrote:I agree. The question is "why would you want to?".
so the average suit jane/john doe can drive around and find someone else to change thier tire for them, since they dont know what a jack is.

instead of them doing it incorectly on the side of the highway and getting run over and ultimately causing a traffic jam.

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audtatious
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If they are unable to change a tire then they should not be driving in the first place

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habitat1 wrote: Oh, but wait, the BMW costs $8k more than the Infiniti. Well, I hate to break it to those MT rocket scientists, but if you take BMW's 20% better fuel economy, BMW's included maintenance and BMW's much better resale value there is NO real difference in cost over 4-5 years. But that's way above their math skills.
Well if you going to take into account that once the warraty is over, the bmw will be less reliable and will require more maintenance and typcial bmw maintenance will cost a lot more then then the 8K disavantage will be a lot more than 8K.

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foxman
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joe603 wrote:If you put FI on the G...it would no longer be a comparison.
Neither would it be a comparison if the 335i had wheelie bars!

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AZhitman wrote:I've been giggling at this one:

"...isnt it just a tad unfair to have a car supplied by the competition ???"

They went to a damn dealership and got the car... So, it's the same car a CONSUMER would have gotten.

By the way: The trans cooler issue is a huge one, and Infiniti has been putting transmission coolers on their cars since the early 90's.

I'll trade a POS "iDrive" system for a functionally-superior transmission anyday.
And I've been giggling at the fact that you have no idea what the **** an iDrive system is.

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AZhitman
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Don't be too sure of yourself.

Then again, some people giggle at nothing in particular.

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One thing about the whole loaner car thing. Of course BMW gives you better vehicles. They have because to because they will see you more often than Infinti of Nissan would. I change my own oil and simple crap like that but other than the day my car was delivered it has never been back to the dealership.

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habitat1 wrote:...but if you take BMW's 20% better fuel economy, BMW's included maintenance and BMW's much better resale value there is NO real difference in cost over 4-5 years. But that's way above their math skills...
Not to dog on you, but since when do BMW's have better resale value than the G? I can find about 100 2004 Bimmers on AutoTrader right now for less than half their list price (excluding the crappy 2.5L Z4's), but I could only find one G35 Coupe for under $20k.

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AZhitman
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Something he apparently missed was that the Top Six cars with the best resale value was remarkably DEVOID of 3-series cars. The 5-series made the list, but was topped by the G35.

Here ya go:

Infiniti G352003 MSRP: $29,2502005 average retail: $27,500Resale value percentage: 94%

Another babbling bimmer bamboozler busted.

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AZ FTMFW...as usual


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Although it falls within my price range, the 335i was never a contender. I view turbos as failures waiting to happen. The 335i may be an exception, but I have never driven a turbo that could match the throttle response of a normally aspirated engine with the same power. (Consider cruising along at 50 mph in top gear, then dropping to third and flooring the accelerator to pass a slowpoke. Turbos cannot handle that situation at all well.)

The 328i coupe was on my short list when I began shopping. However, because I couldn't find manual transmission car within 250 miles, I never drove one. The run-flat tires were a major stumbling block. Like many BMW owners already have, I considered switching to conventional tires. But, it seemed absurd to have to cobble up a spare tire solution for a 40$k car.

I am willing to give BMW a 10 in some areas where the G37 may only merit an 8 or 9. But, in others, BMW only deserves a 4 or a 5. It doesn't take many of the latter for the G37 to come out on top.

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AZhitman
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Kendahl wrote: I have never driven a turbo that could match the throttle response of a normally aspirated engine with the same power. (Consider cruising along at 50 mph in top gear, then dropping to third and flooring the accelerator to pass a slowpoke. Turbos cannot handle that situation at all well.)
Well said.

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Kendahl wrote:Although it falls within my price range, the 335i was never a contender. I view turbos as failures waiting to happen. The 335i may be an exception, but I have never driven a turbo that could match the throttle response of a normally aspirated engine with the same power. (Consider cruising along at 50 mph in top gear, then dropping to third and flooring the accelerator to pass a slowpoke. Turbos cannot handle that situation at all well.)

.
go drive a 335 or a 535i, just for ****s and giggles.

they will have no problem passing a slow poke, depending on how fast you want to pass them, you probably wont even have to drop down a gear.

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Kendahl wrote:Although it falls within my price range, the 335i was never a contender. I view turbos as failures waiting to happen. The 335i may be an exception, but I have never driven a turbo that could match the throttle response of a normally aspirated engine with the same power. (Consider cruising along at 50 mph in top gear, then dropping to third and flooring the accelerator to pass a slowpoke. Turbos cannot handle that situation at all well.)
With 300ft. lbs of torque from 1400rpms's to 5000 why would you need to drop to third in a 335i???

http://www.roadandtrack.com/as...S.pdf

A high compression N/A vehicle takes some winding up to get any low end grunt just like some turbo charged cars with single larger turbo's...

Rubin

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Former_240_s14 wrote:With 300ft. lbs of torque from 1400rpms's to 5000 why would you need to drop to third in a 335i???
The lower the gear, the greater the torque multiplication and the stronger the acceleration. Compare Car & Driver's acceleration times in top gear with their times going through the gears. That's a lot of time to spend in the on-coming lane, potentially playing chicken with an 18-wheeler. Personally, I won't be satisfied with anything less than instantaneous teleportation.


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