MotorTrend Aug. 2007 THE KING IS DEAD! HOW INFINITI’S G37 BEAT BMW’s 335i COUPE!

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picus
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AZhitman wrote:I've been giggling at this one:

"...isnt it just a tad unfair to have a car supplied by the competition ???"

They went to a damn dealership and got the car... So, it's the same car a CONSUMER would have gotten.

By the way: The trans cooler issue is a huge one, and Infiniti has been putting transmission coolers on their cars since the early 90's.

I'll trade a POS "iDrive" system for a functionally-superior transmission anyday.
The cooler you are referiring to is not a transmission cooler, it is an inline air to oil cooler that cools the oil which is in turn used to cool the turbos. It is located in the front passenger fender and is inline with the oil filter. It comes on when the car is warmed up.

AFAIK, the ZF auto transmission in the 335i is functionally superior in every way to the 5 speed auto in the G35/G37. It shifts faster and has an extra gear. They're both still auto's though, so who cares really? iDrive is not as bad on the 3 series as the 7 or 5, which is where it gets its notoriety. You only need to use it for Nav, not radio, hvac, etc.
dmkozak wrote:I do not believe this is entirely accurate. Only cars with the Sport Package get the oil cooler. Originally, it was only manual trans cars with the Sport Package got the oil cooler. Then, earlier this year, the standard oil cooler was extended to auto trans with Sport Package. That is not a small number of cars lacking the oil cooler. None of the non-Sport Package cars have the oil cooler.

Also, BMW has not issued a recall to retrofit oil coolers to all 335i's. There is no official policy to retrofit oil coolers at no cost to the owner. Only auto trans Sport Package owners can get a retrofit, and they have to ask. And, then, they have to demand, sometimes long and hard, to have BMWNA pick up the cost and supply them with a free loaner.
This is correct, although you don't have to demand anymore. A simple complaint gets you the oil cooler now. There will be a TSB soon.
ca18datsun510 wrote:non sport package also have a lower redline, etc, and produce less heat.

i should have mentioned the sportpackage. my oversight, but it seems like all the compartisons have been against sports.

as far as having difficulty getting bmw to do it, i disagree.

also, general if you bought your car new at the dealership, you will get a loaner. and if there are no bmw vehicles, you will get a rental, at not cost to you.

all dealerships are different, you cant compare one to the next. you can have one dealership that has 30 3 series for loan, and 30 x3's, and they will run out. all brand new cars.

then you can have a lower volume dealer that has 10 brand new loaner, and at thier choice they take in lease return, and used cars and use them for loaners.

just cuase one person got a 318ti, and one got a 07 infiniti sedan, doesnt mean that somewhere else someone got a 07 328, and someone else got a 95 g20.

aside from that, lets wate to see the problems that pop up with the new g.
The non sports equipped 335i's do not have a lower redline, they have a lower top speed limiter.

FWIW, not all BMW owners are complete jackasses like the e90 post thread might lead you to believe. I've owned more than one Infiniti, and respect their cars immensely. This time around the 335i was the right car for me, and I will be honest when I say I still think it will win almost all objective tests (by objective tests I mean actual tests, not objective reviews...) like straight line speeds, traps, slalom speeds, skidpads, etc. I think Infiniti was able to capitalize on two big BMW mistakes this time around - lack of an oil cooler in some cars (and using one of those cars to test, which was smart) and lack of LSD. The 335i should have LSD standard, only BMW is to blame for that. I agree with MT though that for the money the G37 is the best bang for your buck in the segment by a long shot. Whether the 335i is worth the extra money is up to the buyer, but in many cases it will not be. For me and some others it was. I am happy to explain why should you care.


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G_whizz
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I knew some of you would be popping in here at some point



Welcome to NICO!

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Mind you, I have NEVER owned a BMW and I still think my 1995 Nissan Maxima SE 5-speed was one of the best cars I've ever owned, but that Motor Trend article is so full of crap I can smell it coming out of my computer. First, the absolutely pathetic excuse for comparing "slushboxes" that Motor Trend quotes: they are more "popular". For crap's sake, you Motor Trend idiots, you are comparing two performance oriented coupes (not the more "popular" sedans or some Camry/Accord lookalike) that cater more to the "enthusiast" buyer. And then you do the test of slushbox against slushbox and actually think any serious enthusaist gives a crap? Save the trees and stop printing such garbage. But, guess what, the BMW still wins in EVERY single performance category. Acceleration, skidpad, braking (tie actually). And it gets almost 20% better gas mileage. Pretty easy to see who the "winner" is in this slushbox comparo from my seat. Oh, but wait, the BMW costs $8k more than the Infiniti. Well, I hate to break it to those MT rocket scientists, but if you take BMW's 20% better fuel economy, BMW's included maintenance and BMW's much better resale value there is NO real difference in cost over 4-5 years. But that's way above their math skills. As best I can tell, the marketing department of Nissan paid Motor Trend, big time, for a complete BS comparison. If they didn't, they should send Motor Trend a big box of chocolates. Too bad, because I would have actually liked to see an honest, unbiased comparison of the G37 coupe against the 335i coupe equiped the way anyone who really wants to DRIVE these cars would - with a manual transmission. And without some assinine concluding comment like "considering the micro performance margins and macro price differential". MT needs to take a macro walk off a micro pier on this one. Utter crap.

P.S. I posted this on Edmunds after someone there referred to this forum. Not here to make enemies. Like I said, still love my Nissan Maxima after 13 years. But my rebuke of Motor Trend still stands. Maybe we'll get a chance to see a real comparison of the G37 6-speed against the 335i 6-speed. Even my 8 year old daughter can shift gears from the passenger seat of our 911S Cab.

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Riiiiiiight

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habitat1 wrote:blah blah blah
thank you. you are completly correct. and you left out at least one thing. on top of all that, the bmw is more emissions friendly.

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habitat1 wrote:stuff
I agree with some of what you say, but not how you say it. I don't think their review is crap, remember in the end a review is still someone's opinion. That someone just happens to be a respected automotive journalist. I do think it's weird that the BMW won all objective tests and still lost, however given the price difference and specifically their omission of an oil cooler I think they deserved to lose. Next time the bean counters in Munich want to save $50 a car and omit a necessary part maybe they will think twice.

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zozoka1212
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I think what the biggest problem is for a long time BMW had no real competition. They were able to stay on the top for a long time. Don't misunderstand me. I owned BMW back in Europe. I loved it. I have German blood in me. My father used to work for Mercedes for 10 years. I love German engineering. But the time has changed. New stars coming up and shine. Some of them shinier than the others. The real question is how long they can stay up. Looks like the Infiniti is getting to close to the BMW. Can admit it or deny it. BMW is forced to launch their new products faster on the market. They never been under real pressure. That is where could be their downfall no time to test or not much. I guess time will tell how well they handle the pressure. People never thought the GM will ever give up their first place. Well we all know that is history now. I just hope there will be more car makers get involved with this. So we can have more options and well equipped cars for a competitive prices. If that happens after all, we all win. Peace!!!

zozoka

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habitat1 wrote:Oh, but wait, the BMW costs $8k more than the Infiniti. Well, I hate to break it to those MT rocket scientists, but if you take BMW's 20% better fuel economy, BMW's included maintenance and BMW's much better resale value there is NO real difference in cost over 4-5 years. But that's way above their math skills.
This part I agree with. The rest of what you said I don't really. If you've ever driven a 335i with the paddles, slushbox wouldn't come to mind. Trust me. Same goes for the G35/7's tranny, though it's not as quick with it's shifts as the 335i. Contrary to your belief, there are plenty of BMW & Infiniti enthusiasts that prefer the "slushbox".

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Oatmealman
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lol,3xtrm3 is a tard

Nope, not simple at all. But... do you realllllllllllllllly think they could have left their cars FWD and could compete in a luxury market? lmao thats silly.

ummm,cadillac sure does one hell of job of it,with their fwd northstar v-8's that would kill a bmw all day long,despite weighing 4,000 pounds and getting better gas mileage.Wow bmw owners are douche bags,and they get butt hurt when they realize that their precious bmw's are the shiznit like they thought.

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AZhitman
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ca18datsun510 wrote:but the point is, they didnt beat the 335 in any hard factual way.

they beat it based on the opinions of motor trend. woopty doo.

i love playing devils advocate.
Me too.

Keep in mind, the G35 beat the 3-series in the earlier MT comparo in every meaningful category, yet the BMW got the nod.

I don't recall any wailing and gnashing of teeth from the BMW crew back then.

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AZhitman
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picus wrote:FWIW, not all BMW owners are complete jackasses like the e90 post thread might lead you to believe.
Agreed - I actually enjoyed most of the posts in that thread... Several of those guys are very well-spoken and know their stuff, which makes a good forum participant in my book!

Picus, thanks for the clarification on the other point - If they're not using some sort of passive ATF cooler, that's a problem.

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torbach1
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Well, I'm new to Infiniti, and maybe still in my honeymoon period, but as an ex BMW driver (my wife and I have owned or leased 6 total), and an ex Audi owner too, in response to the folks who think that all BMW dealers have loaners, that's no where near to being true.

Yes there are fluctuations and so on, by state and location, but overall, BMW's customer service and service department is seriously lacking compared to Infiniti's. I can say that at least in the DC area, BMW service is terrible at this point. If you get a BMW loaner car, you're very lucky and would have to have scheduled the appointment 2 months ahead of time. Otherwise it's an Enterprise rental which you have to often wait for 20 to 45 minutes to get. Infiniti on the other hand always gives Infiniti loaners. I can't even begin to compare the service I am receiving so far from my infiniti dealer to what I had at VOB BMW. There is simply no comparison... I can give more details if you're interested.

As for the rest of the article, comparison, etc., I do believe that the 335i is probably the nicer car to drive overall (this without my having driven either one, just based on what I've read elsewhere), and I think the 335i coupe is the better looking of the two (but the G35 sedan is much better looking than the 335i sedan) but the big question is whether it's worth the extra $ or not, and whether you want to deal with BMW's service (by the way, isn't the 4 years maintenance going away as of next month for BMW? I thought I read that on one of their forums). I don't think the article was particularly well written or that the conclusions were particularly convincing. But one point is clear... Infiniti is catching up to (and for some of us ex-bimmers, has already caught up to) BMW, and that can only be a great thing for clients of both manufacturers. BMW could really do with some attitude adjustment in my opinion (some BMW drivers could also do with some attitude adjustment), and they can definitely do with the competition. The fact that Nissan makes Infiniti means nothing in this day and age. Toyota also made the supra... Acura/Honda made the NSX (It was a Honda outside of the US), etc. One of the manufacturers that I've been really impressed with lately is Hyundai. They're moving up in the world very quickly and are actually planning to have a competitor in this segment within a year. You may laugh, but based on their projectile like progress of late, it could be pretty good. I rented a Sonata V6 recently and was very pleasantly surprised - nicer to drive than a camry by far.

Also, as far as interiors are concerned, BMW really screwed up in some areas that drove me nuts when I drove the 330i. infiniti also made a few mistakes, but not as bad. For example, the fact that you can't see the iDrive or non-iDrive screen with sunglasses on unless you tilt your head to an angle (whilst completely taking your eyes of the road), and that this has been an issue for over 1.5 years and is still not fixed is in my view ridiculous. They also put the window buttons way too far forward. The cupholders are a joke in both cars.

I actually really liked the quirky indicator in the bimmer. Once you get used to it, it's preferable to the normal one. Anyway, enough rumbling for one night - it's way past my bed time.

More thoughts later.

CheersTamir

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AZhitman
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Tamir, that's a better review than the article - You wanna join the staff?

A couple things to add:

Whether I'm in my "under warranty" G35 Coupe, OR my pristine but aging Q45, OR my ragged and tired G20, I ALWAYS get a brand new loaner car.

As long as I make an appointment a few hours in advance, I roll out in an 06-07 Sedan. Once, I got an FX35 when they were out of Sedans.

I don't have to buy gas for it, I don't get quibbled with, I don't get treated like a chump. "Here's your car, Mr. Childs, have a safe day." Done.

On the other hand, I have twice been to the local BMW dealer here in Phoenix (the largest one in town) and they were absurd both times...

Granted, you may not choose to draw much of a conclusion from 2 incidents, but you get ONE chance to impress me.

The first was me dropping my buddy's 5-series off for a bad TPS, and he got the 318. He's a commercial real estate broker making 8 figures a year. The 318 had 98K miles on it. Nice.

The second was an ex-GF who asked for my help with her Z3, which had persistent (4 visits) brake issues. She got no loaner, because I told them she wasn't authorizing any work until they called her to explain what was wrong with it.

I wonder if BMW owners realize that there's a better way...

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Oatmealman wrote:lol,3xtrm3 is a tard

Nope, not simple at all. But... do you realllllllllllllllly think they could have left their cars FWD and could compete in a luxury market? lmao thats silly.

ummm,cadillac sure does one hell of job of it,with their fwd northstar v-8's that would kill a bmw all day long,despite weighing 4,000 pounds and getting better gas mileage.Wow bmw owners are douche bags,and they get butt hurt when they realize that their precious bmw's are the shiznit like they thought.
that was a little out of left field.i guess you didnt get the memo that cadillacs are garbage, particularly the northstars. and which are gonna beat bmw?

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AZhitman wrote:
Me too.

Keep in mind, the G35 beat the 3-series in the earlier MT comparo in every meaningful category, yet the BMW got the nod.

I don't recall any wailing and gnashing of teeth from the BMW crew back then.
yeah i brought that up previously.

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Call me silly but I would still buy the bimmer. The G's are just way to common, on my block alone there has to be 8-10 G35's out there. That and I'm just nuts on how that BMW looks.

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ok silly

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G_whizz
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Nice write up Torbach!!
OutToWinPAHC wrote:Call me silly but I would still buy the bimmer. The G's are just way to common, on my block alone there has to be 8-10 G35's out there. That and I'm just nuts on how that BMW looks.
You're silly!!

The G is wayyyy more of a headturner then the BMW IMHO.

So you wouldn't get the G because everyone else drives one around your area that's or is it because you like the look of the BMW better??

The G is wayyyy more of a headturner then the BMW IMHO.

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With the previous generation 3-series, BMW outsold Infiniti on the G35 by a fairly large margin... Give it a few months and you'll probably find that both cars will be very common in your neighborhood and you're not going to stand out in either one.

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Tough choice still, I mean without looking at the price. Car junkies like you all will most likely to choose cheaper ones, with option to upgrade yourself. On the other hand, BMW twin turbo setup is a good platform too.

I only wish that G37 gets a 6-speed tranny with improved gearing ratio, which definitely help the acceleration. *If I have the money .... I'll get the G37.


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For those that keep cars beyond warranty, do yourself a gigantic favor and preshop the cost of automatic replacements.

5 AT are less expensive than 6AT or 7AT.......................what used to be a $1800 wholesale factory [4AT] rebuild has creeped up to $3000 and $3800-$4100 wholesale for parts.

These 7AT ZF are estimated at $6,300-7,000 retail including swap and programming labor.

These trannies take 10-11 hours book time plus a few hours to readapt/reprogram after the swap ~~ $1200-$1500.


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OutToWinPAHC So you are buying a car to show your neighbour what you have or because you like the style,performance, etc? If you buy one BMW make sure you don't drive it too far from your block because there is more BMW than G outside of your block. The G i unique the BMW has the european style what you can find in almost every european car. Not just the exterior sometimes the interior also.

turboduck

without you looking at the pricetag we all would end up buying Lambo or other good one. After all there is a huge factor in your decision called budget. Can I afford it without sacrificing anything? I like the way most BMW owner say If they were the same in everything I would still pay for the BMW even if it is 8K more. So what stops you at that point why not buy a M series BMW. Oh yeah the MONEY!!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

zozoka

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ca18datsun510 wrote:but the point is, they didnt beat the 335 in any hard factual way.

i love playing devils advocate.
I think reliability is pretty factual. Reminds of a CandD comparison test a while back where the BMW literally fell apart in their hands, but was still declared the winner, as if it had run reliably. In the real world, a Honda Civic would have won because it would have passed the BMW several times broken down on the side of the road. In the magazine world, long term is 50K miles, essentially 3 yrs. and the initial warranty period. Most car owners keep cars at least 7 years.

Shame on BMW for not equipping their cars properly initially. They once were known for their engineering.

I think you really like avoiding the obvious.

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torbach1 wrote:Give it a few months and you'll probably find that both cars will be very common in your neighborhood and you're not going to stand out in either one.
Agreed.

The part I struggle with is the styling.

I absolutely LOVE the non-Bangled BMW's, esp the 5 and 7-series, and this model shares many of the 80's and early-90's styling cues that made those cars so timeless.

The new G styling leaves me wishing they had remained a little more true to the Concept car.

And for God's sake, quit painting the damn things RED, it's the worst color for a G in my opinion.

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zozoka1212 wrote:OutToWinPAHC I like the way most BMW owner say If they were the same in everything I would still pay for the BMW even if it is 8K more. So what stops you at that point why not buy a M series BMW. Oh yeah the MONEY!!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ zozoka
on that note, a Porsche, Ferrari, god forbid a BMW owner would buy a domestic (Ford GT, Z06, Viper).

Hilarious that someone on the BMW forum said a BMW will beat any car on the market on looks except for a few exotics. Can't really remember the last time a BMW caught my eye and I said, "Holy sh*t, that was a BMW 345916xi^2". More like "...that was a Murcielago, a GT, or a Vanquish!" To be honest, a Mustang with the Saleen or Rouche package catches my eye more than a 3 series.

The oil cooler excuse for Bimmers is lame. Why would I pay $8,000 more to have my engine overheat and risk having to buy a new engine because of something so simple? Sure they're supposedly rolling out with a TSB for it, but c'mon. The other excuse, that they bought a post/pre-March 3 series (which ever ones don't come with the cooler) is lame. Those cars are still on the market somewhere. Maybe performance wise, this is like a home-court advantage call for a foul they missed earlier or a make-up call. So to that, and

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Well said smockers83

They saying they get free maint. for several years. You pay 10k more for the car which ends up more due to the interest you pay. So basicaly you end up paying maybe $200-300 more for BMW a month.If you buy it monthly. Well after all they pay for that maint. don't they? Also it is free maint for only US costumers not for canadians or any other part of the world. The europian sales for BMW not going well. In their homeland people don't like BMW that much. I think that tells a lot. People buying more italian and french cars like Alfa Romeo,Peugeot or Renault( owned by Nissan).

zozoka

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There are some really awesome points here, but what I find interesting on the E90 site...most of them are dogging the G37, hats off to the few that gave some excellent pros/cons for both cars. My point is how many of the "G37 haters" have any idea what they are talking about? How many have even driven a G37 yet? I would say almost none if any. Yes, you can comment on how they both look, but I don't know about you guys....it's how the car performs and looks!! Again just my 2 cents!!

Our next car purchase will be for my wife so not sure if I will be able to talk her into a g37 coupe or g35 sedan. Give me a moment of silence please...women. So I may have to wait some time for a G37 or a Bimmer test drive.


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AZhitman wrote:
Me too.

Keep in mind, the G35 beat the 3-series in the earlier MT comparo in every meaningful category, yet the BMW got the nod.

I don't recall any wailing and gnashing of teeth from the BMW crew back then.
I do recall some gnashing of Infiniti fans teeth. :D
AZhitman wrote:
Agreed - I actually enjoyed most of the posts in that thread... Several of those guys are very well-spoken and know their stuff, which makes a good forum participant in my book!

Picus, thanks for the clarification on the other point - If they're not using some sort of passive ATF cooler, that's a problem.
Both AT and MT 335i's have a transmission cooler standard.
torbach1 wrote:
CheersTamir

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smockers83 wrote:
The oil cooler excuse for Bimmers is lame. Why would I pay $8,000 more to have my engine overheat and risk having to buy a new engine because of something so simple? Sure they're supposedly rolling out with a TSB for it, but c'mon. The other excuse, that they bought a post/pre-March 3 series (which ever ones don't come with the cooler) is lame. Those cars are still on the market somewhere. Maybe performance wise, this is like a home-court advantage call for a foul they missed earlier or a make-up call. So to that, and
They are all over the market, it's all non-zsp cars and all auto's from June through March, so I'd say the ratio of no oil cooler 335i's to ones with is something like 4 or 5:1. You're right, it was an idiot move. It won't cause an engine issue though, limp mode is just that, the car shuts down well before engine damage is done. But ya, the whole thing is a joke, the guy who came up with that idea should be hanged.


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