Matic J transmission fluid will be no more! Auto Trans people Read!!

[Sentientbydesign]

I know Steve will love this:

[smockers83]

Poyzinous, your logic is actually wrong. Take oil filters for example. Mobile1 oil filters are made by the same company with the same design as an oil filter that is sold for a lot less. There may be a very slight tweak, one that may not even be noticeable in the Mobile1 and the name of Mobile that increase the price.

What was that thread that had the study of oil filters in it?

Why does one power tool at Sears cost more than the exact same power tool that is at Wal-Mart? Here's what the manufacturer does. Say it's a drill. Drills have electric motors. An electric motor's capacity is based on how many times the motor is wound with copper. The motor in the drill at Sears will actually have more copper wire for its motor than the one at Wal-Mart.

I also agree with Nate in that there will be a bias towards Nissan/Infiniti from Nissan/Infiniti employees.

[smockers83]

I should also mention that another reason for dealership fluids like Nissan Matic ATFs are jacked up in price due to economies of scale. If you want to know more about economies of scale, visit the Politics forum and check out the international trade thread.

When Nissan buys a fluid from a company that manufactures lubricants (lets face it, we all know Nissan doesn't manufacture its own ATF, brake fluid, oil, etc), they only sell that fluid through Nissan/Infiniti dealers, limiting their economies of scale, or almost put in a simpler way, their distribution potential. If Castrol does in fact manufacture Nissan's ATF, Castrol can sell its own fluid at a much cheaper price because it can sell a lot more of it through more distribution channels, such as retail stores (Wal-Mart, Target, etc.), auto parts stores (Autozone, Advanced Auto, etc.). Due to Nissan's limited distribution, they have to increase the price further in order to recoup their costs.

[Poyzinous]

I know what you're talking about dude. The sears/walmart comparison... price difference... ok. Anyway, if I was allowed to disclose certain info, you would know other reasons why some stuff is more expensive at dealers. What I can tell you is that nissan development engineers don't just inflate prices from an equal product. There are minor(though fairly significant) variances in those products. Formulas aren't the same. Think about RC cola and Pepsi and Coke. All are caramel soft drinks with pretty much the same ingredients, but different variances, etc... The product that is bottled into one space isn't just poured into another one and given a different label. They go thru other little twitches and are given, special touches, so to speak, to differenciate them from a standard product. Comprende? somewhat? ok well soak it all in. The Ester oil post was just for fun. I was hoping to hear some compliments (and criticizms from the electrons in this molecule of G owners). But now that my buzz has died down I guess there are no longer seismic perceptions of my abience...

[G37 Man]

You I know what you're talking about dude. The sears/walmart comparison... price difference... ok. Anyway, if I was allowed to disclose certain info, you would know other reasons why some stuff is more expensive at dealers. What I can tell you is that nissan development engineers don't just inflate prices from an equal product. There are minor(though fairly significant) variances in those products. Formulas aren't the same. Think about RC cola and Pepsi and Coke. All are caramel soft drinks with pretty much the same ingredients, but different variances, etc... The product that is bottled into one space isn't just poured into another one and given a different label. They go thru other little twitches and are given, special touches, so to speak, to differenciate them from a standard product. Comprende? somewhat? ok well soak it all in. The Ester oil post was just for fun. I was hoping to hear some compliments (and criticizms from the electrons in this molecule of G owners). But now that my buzz has died down I guess there are no longer seismic perceptions of my abience...

You don't want me to start on the Ester oil issue again

I know Steve doesn't!

[smockers83]

I know what you're talking about dude. The sears/walmart comparison... price difference... ok. Anyway, if I was allowed to disclose certain info, you would know other reasons why some stuff is more expensive at dealers. What I can tell you is that nissan development engineers don't just inflate prices from an equal product. There are minor(though fairly significant) variances in those products. Formulas aren't the same. Think about RC cola and Pepsi and Coke. All are caramel soft drinks with pretty much the same ingredients, but different variances, etc... The product that is bottled into one space isn't just poured into another one and given a different label. They go thru other little twitches and are given, special touches, so to speak, to differenciate them from a standard product. Comprende? somewhat? ok well soak it all in. The Ester oil post was just for fun. I was hoping to hear some compliments (and criticizms from the electrons in this molecule of G owners). But now that my buzz has died down I guess there are no longer seismic perceptions of my abience...

Eh, almost, but you're on the right track. Your example doesn't exactly work because RC Cola doesn't buy their syrup from Coke or Pepsi and change it.

I'm sure when Nissan orders its fluids from a manufacturer, they have specific specifications that may be different from the base fluid. A little more this, little less that. Nissan would have to inflate its prices on the fluids they bought and just rebranded without further enhancements. One, because they have to make a profit and two, well I've already gone into two. A further enhancement of the fluid, if any, would inflate the price even more to pay for Nissan's engineering.

There's also warranty issues involved with the price as well.
Modified by smockers83 at 9:59 PM 2/13/2009

[Sentientbydesign]

We're going to have to split this thread, but it's good convo, so I'll keep going.

With regards to the sears comparison...There's a little more applicable comparison with a better explanation. I bought a tool at Sears. It's a hand tool. It comes with a lifetime warranty. The price of the tool was $25 + tax.

Later that same day, I went across the street to Home Depot (damn do I hate that place) and I saw the EXACT same tool for $20. The size, shape, where the machining was done EVERYTHING except for two aspects... The Sears tool had a black textured grip whereas the HD had a blue "shiny" grip and the etching was different (Craftsman vs. XXX Brand).

So why was the Sears tool more? Because of the name and the warranty.

Poyzinous,

You'd be amazed how often products are distributed under a brand name and a generic name and sold a greatly differing prices. Actually a few brands specifically say "The makers of XXX do not make private label brands"

I love when BP owns Arco and Thrifty and one sells for higher than the other on opposing street corners.

Or, my all time favorite is when Intel and AMD started intentionally "breaking" their processors so that they could be sold for a lower price in a different category (Some of the on-board memory was physically severed to downgrade performance).

[SteveTheTech]

I know Steve will love this:

I would bathe in that, I mean it probably costs more than a bottle of really good Tequila. Stupid GTR fluid.

Nissan/Infiniti employees as a majority do not make any additional money if you do or do not buy Nissan OE fluids. Personally I do not care, it means nothing to me. I try to do my customers an additional service by replacing the fluids with the OE replacement if at all possible. It's what I use in my car and Acura OE fluids go in the wifes car. Maybe I am superstitious but that's me, it comes back to car Karma points.

As this thread progresses it is a good show case of the diversity of this group. It spurred an interesting debates. At the end of the day it matters more that your maintaining you car, than what your maintaining it with. It's your car do with it as you please. For some of you who swear off all dealer contact unless you either broke your car beyond repair or need something free by all means use whatever you think will work best. I do make money off repairing broken things, not the fluids you use. Just don't let price or marketing dictate your maintenance, be an educated consumer.

Poyzinous~I lol'd, get back to work

[pfarmer]

We're going to have to split this thread, but it's good convo, so I'll keep going.

With regards to the sears comparison...There's a little more applicable comparison with a better explanation. I bought a tool at Sears. It's a hand tool. It comes with a lifetime warranty. The price of the tool was $25 + tax.

Later that same day, I went across the street to Home Depot (damn do I hate that place) and I saw the EXACT same tool for $20. The size, shape, where the machining was done EVERYTHING except for two aspects... The Sears tool had a black textured grip whereas the HD had a blue "shiny" grip and the etching was different (Craftsman vs. XXX Brand).Poyzinous,

You'd be amazed how often products are distributed under a brand name and a generic name and sold a greatly differing prices. Actually a few brands specifically say "The makers of XXX do not make private label brands"

I love when BP owns Arco and Thrifty and one sells for higher than the other on opposing street corners.

Or, my all time favorite is when Intel and AMD started intentionally "breaking" their processors so that they could be sold for a lower price in a different category (Some of the on-board memory was physically severed to downgrade performance).

On the last part about processors one could actually compare many camcorders. For awhile during the vhs days you would find many which looked almost exactly alike. The difference was features would not be enabled on some. In the case of monitors many of the originals were done the same way right down to using the same circuit boards with sections not populated.

Now for a rebranded name that is a lot cheaper than the branded. I found out by accident that some of the batteries were rebranded right over the real brands label, haven't seen this in some time now. Now after doing a little bit of research I ran into something interesting. If you look at the warning labels you can find a brand sold by its side with a warning label worded exactly the same. Think about it a little bit and you can understand how and why that would occur even though the package was different.

As far as the economy of scale, I don't know if that is really true. Consider the cost of tires on a new car to the manufacturer compared to what they will resell you the tire for. There is no reason that Nissan, while not manufacturing the oil could not buy it in bulk for both their new cars, their service departments, and also use it to sell individually.

As far as the coke/pepsi comparison, do they actually bottle their own products, at least in all locations?

Perry

[smockers83]

As far as the economy of scale, I don't know if that is really true. Consider the cost of tires on a new car to the manufacturer compared to what they will resell you the tire for. There is no reason that Nissan, while not manufacturing the oil could not buy it in bulk for both their new cars, their service departments, and also use it to sell individually.

Sure it's true. Nissan's only customers are people with Nissans and Infinitis. They have only a limited market to sell to, a much smaller one than say Castrol, which can make a fluid for a number of different cars across different brands. For example, both Nissan and Subaru use the Matic J, but each one sells it to either people with Nissan or Subaru cars. Castrol on the other hand, can take a fluid and have it meet numerous specifications of different cars across different brands and sell it through many more distribution channels. The fact that Castrol can do that, it lowers the price they're able to charge because they can produce in much more bulk than Nissan and Subaru can buy it at and sell it to many more people. Castrol producing it in a higher amount and being able to sell it to many millions of more people than Nissan and Subaru combined allows them to produce it cheaper, charge a lower price, and still recoup all of their production costs.

If you want to learn more about it...zer...trade

[Poyzinous]

While all of you make some good points, remember also that a 'multiple use' branded product is not always the same quality product as a dedicated use product. Auto companies are sneaky, they want to survive in this very competitive business, and prove it to each other. They will make something that requires a certain product, but tweak their something so that it will perform to 90 or 95% of its total potential without a certain specific balance or key secret ingredient. Thats what (with some maufacturers) differentiates the store product from the dealer product. They want to encourage specific applications to grow dedication. Its crazy how this thread blew up. I just wanted to tell everyone about the phaze out of matic J, and hear: 'gee whiz gabriel! thanx for telling me!' and 'golly gabe! thats good to know!' and 'jeebers dude! I'll ask for that next dealer visit!'.Instead we just stuffed a rapidly expanding gaseous mass of fun. Anyway, in conclusion, Castrol does not make matic S. Nippon oil does. Even with matic J, castrol's formula was different than Nissan matic J. Anyway, the good stuff has an unspecified(secret) percentage of super highly refined petroleum oil and mineral oil mists. Castrol doesn't even know if its 80% or 84%. it could be 80.237%. The rest is additives in undisclosed amounts and types. They refine and process it so it has a higher flash point than the cheap stuff you can buy, it also has a lower pour point temperature(good for you way up northern guys), and a fluid density that measures somewhere between .01 grams per cubic centimeter at 15*C, less than 3% fluid mass petroleum extract. I could go on, but i might be taken away in a white van and you guys will never hear from me again.Finally, buying castrol (instead of nissan) you will notice that even though they say you can use their stuff, they are still not totally confident in their own product, since they include a disclaimer stating they are not responsible for things that happen, and they offer no warranty coverage etc etc etc. okay everyone?CLASS DISMISSED!!!

[pfarmer]

Sure it's true. Nissan's only customers are people with Nissans and Infinitis. They have only a limited market to sell to, a much smaller one than say Castrol, which can make a fluid for a number of different cars across different brands. For example, both Nissan and Subaru use the Matic J, but each one sells it to either people with Nissan or Subaru cars. Castrol on the other hand, can take a fluid and have it meet numerous specifications of different cars across different brands and sell it through many more distribution channels. The fact that Castrol can do that, it lowers the price they're able to charge because they can produce in much more bulk than Nissan and Subaru can buy it at and sell it to many more people. Castrol producing it in a higher amount and being able to sell it to many millions of more people than Nissan and Subaru combined allows them to produce it cheaper, charge a lower price, and still recoup all of their production costs.

If you want to learn more about it...zer...trade

While Castro may sell more oil than Nissan buys for all its cars, it doesn't mean that Nissan is not utilizing 'economies of scale' in the selling of oil in individual quarts. Once the oil is purchased in bulk for their entire business then the economies of scale most affected could well be the packaging.

Take the case of tires. Not sure what the new cost is now, but at one time it was about 3 bucks a tire to the vehicle manufacturer at the same time they would be selling about 25 times that individually. One would think they would be selling individually what they purchase in bulk. If all new Nissans use the same oil new then you have that amount, plus all they use for oil changes, as well as what they sell individually, just like the tire example.

Perry

[pfarmer]

While all of you make some good points, remember also that a 'multiple use' branded product is not always the same quality product as a dedicated use product. Auto companies are sneaky, they want to survive in this very competitive business, and prove it to each other. They will make something that requires a certain product, but tweak their something so that it will perform to 90 or 95% of its total potential without a certain specific balance or key secret ingredient.

Consider the Jiffy Lube scene. You can go to Jiffy Lube and have your transmission fluid l changed. They will tell you it is the same stuff going back using their fluid with additives to match yours. Even if that is true do you trust them to get it right (consider who owns Jiffy Lube)? In the case of my Chrysler there was suppose to be something like seven different formulations for the transmission fluid using what Chrysler supplies, what you get is based on the transmission version, something I doubt they would take the time to figure out.

The difference in cost is a small price to pay for insurance.

Perry

[smockers83]

While Castro may sell more oil than Nissan buys for all its cars, it doesn't mean that Nissan is not utilizing 'economies of scale' in the selling of oil in individual quarts. Once the oil is purchased in bulk for their entire business then the economies of scale most affected could well be the packaging.

Never did I say Nissan wasn't utilizing their economies of scale. Anywhere.

What I said was...

Nissan has much smaller economies of scale compared to Castrol whether they utilize them or not (one would be stupid not to as they'd go bankrupt). If Castrol supplied Nissan with ATF with no alterations, Castrol would still be able to charge a lower price than Nissan. Granted Nissan also has to markup to recoup their costs. If all Castrol ATF was solely used for Nissans, they would sell at essentially the same price because their economies of scales are the same--the ones available in the Nissan market.

Added to this, Nissan also tries to take advantage of monopolistic benefits.

The difference in cost is a small price to pay for insurance.

In that example, again you have economies of scale. To have 7 different formulations for each different transmission, Chrysler's cost of production goes way up to produce those 7 fluids, due to the economies of scale.

[pfarmer]

Never did I say Nissan wasn't utilizing their economies of scale. Anywhere.

What I said was...

Nissan has much smaller economies of scale compared to Castrol whether they utilize them or not (one would be stupid not to as they'd go bankrupt). If Castrol supplied Nissan with ATF with no alterations, Castrol would still be able to charge a lower price than Nissan. Granted Nissan also has to markup to recoup their costs. If all Castrol ATF was solely used for Nissans, they would sell at essentially the same price because their economies of scales are the same--the ones available in the Nissan market.

Added to this, Nissan also tries to take advantage of monopolistic benefits.

In that example, again you have economies of scale. To have 7 different formulations for each different transmission, Chrysler's cost of production goes way up to produce those 7 fluids, due to the economies of scale.

What is interesting here is that we are speaking of 7 different versions of the same transmission, however you could for the most part rebuild pretty much any of the transmissions using a specific rebuild kit.

I came across this problem on a 300 m site where someone would go to a Jiffy Lube type of business for fluid change, etc. and then the transmission would go nuts. Assuming no damage, changing it back and things may end up basically normal once more. They are very particular in what you put in them. I figure as often as you really need this service done, the dealer is a much safer place to have it done correctly.

Again cheap insurance. You may save 50 bucks at fluid change time or whatever only to pay a couple of thousand shortly thereafter. Even if exactly the same fluid going in which I doubt, the warranty may well be worth while.

Perry

[smockers83]

I wasn't arguing which one you should buy, Nissan or Castrol. I was just trying to explain the main reason why Nissan's is expensive compared to stuff one can grab off the shelf.

[pfarmer]

I wasn't arguing which one you should buy, Nissan or Castrol. I was just trying to explain the main reason why Nissan's is expensive compared to stuff one can grab off the shelf.

I didn't say you were. What I am pointing out is that it shouldn't be nearly so expensive unless it truely is far more expensive to produce since the actual difference in economies of scale at the individual unit probably doesn't justify the price difference if it is actually the same product.

On the other hand if the stuff really is different then it may in fact being sold at a very reasonable price. Other things come into play of course such as storage cost to the business, does it compete with other product placement, etc.

Regardless, even if the price is twice what it should be it still can become cheap insurance and may well be the real reflection of what justifies the cost to the consumer over brand 'x'.

Perry

[Poyzinous]

Its official. Not available anymore. J matic is all gone. Get your Matic S 2day...

[pfarmer]

For stock auto transmissions starting with the RE5 (02+Q) Nissan started using a different fluid with less detergents and slightly different additives.

If you are taking out the original valve body and replacing all of the seals, servos, and sealing devices. I would say you may be able to get away with something else but I wouldn't risk it if it were my car. Why risk it to save a few bucks if you are already building the trans?

This thread was started as an informative thread. If you want to start taking it off topic we can split it and you and poyzinous can sling mud at each other there.

Matic J and S are they only fluids that will not void your warranty

My guess is that with the price of a replacement/repair that a dealer just may have it tested to see if it is the correct fluid and unadulterated. Probably not all that hard since the mixture is known.

Perry

[SteveTheTech]

Most cases will not get to that point until they recall the part for a warranty examination. It doesn't happen all the time but when something that does not typically fail (ie an RE5) they may want it back or request a further investigation before a repair, like requesting any and all service records before approving any warranty claim. The failure is not technically a warranty issue. Click the image below to read more. The warranty information is standard and although you may able to pull the wool over their eyes, technically they do not have to replace anything for you that you have altered it in basically anyway or "improperly serviced" your car.



I'm not here to make money from anything. I am here as an Infiniti fan first and a technician second. What you do to your car is your prerogative I just want to keep all the Infinitis out there running correct.

[Poyzinous]

such majestic honor in your words. STEVE 4 PRESIDENT!!!

[pfarmer]

Most cases will not get to that point until they recall the part for a warranty examination. It doesn't happen all the time but when something that does not typically fail (ie an RE5) they may want it back or request a further investigation before a repair, like requesting any and all service records before approving any warranty claim. The failure is not technically a warranty issue. Click the image below to read more. The warranty information is standard and although you may able to pull the wool over their eyes, technically they do not have to replace anything for you that you have altered it in basically anyway or "improperly serviced" your car.

To me the last sentence is what really counts in that in the manual it clearly states not to use any other transmission fluid than Matic J. I came across this in the warranty information after looking at the local Infiniti (of Fife) newsletter which I just received today about using lower grade fuels. In the newsletter article it states you can without voiding the warranty because it was a recommendation to use the recommended octane not a requirement.

Now when I read this I thought about the ATF recommendation and came up with the fact it has an asterisk and provides the added part about Matic J at section 9-3.

Back to the fuel recommendation I find it interesting on the wording difference between the 35 engine and the 37. It seems to state that you can go ahead and use 87 octane in the 35 without damage (similar to what is stated on the local Infiniti of Fife's newsletter, that you will possibly suffer a performance decrease, however in the case of the 37 it goes on to state you can only do so on a temporary basis and only if you follow certain precautions. In your post of the warranty statement you can see reference to this under 'Damage, Failures or Corrosion due to lack of or improper maintenance' and then list the example of bullet #2 of improper fuels, fluids, etc.

Again even if a fluid is exactly the same then I figure it is still cheap insurance to use what is so strongly 'recommended'.

You see some here for example that some state they use whatever and then make a statement that they are aggressive drivers. Based on what I have seen in other fields such as medical insurance admitting to various things like smoking online can work against you when you are looking to engage in a certain protocal of treatment. What stops a dealer from paying the same attention if they suspect a certain customer is 'abusing' their vehicle and trying to get warranty work done? For example admitting to having aftermarket parts installed and then removing such parts when warranty work is needed to conceal their use.

I personally like seeing what others are doing with aftermarket parts, but I also feel the price of using them may be that you may not have a valid warranty any longer.

Perry

[smockers83]

Again even if a fluid is exactly the same then I figure it is still cheap insurance to use what is so strongly 'recommended'.

So if you had a bottle of Nissan fluid and a bottle of Brand X fluid and the only difference was the label, you'd still go with Nissan? What if you had the fluids in the exact same bottles with no labels and no way to distinguish between the two, which one would you pick?

Now I agree that in the real world it is like insurance to get Nissan, but if you have the exact same thing at a cheaper price, why pay more? It's economically irrational. That would be like buying a Pioneer plasma at a home theater boutique at $2000 versus going to Best Buy and buying it for $1000.

[pfarmer]

So if you had a bottle of Nissan fluid and a bottle of Brand X fluid and the only difference was the label, you'd still go with Nissan? What if you had the fluids in the exact same bottles with no labels and no way to distinguish between the two, which one would you pick?

Now I agree that in the real world it is like insurance to get Nissan, but if you have the exact same thing at a cheaper price, why pay more? It's economically irrational. That would be like buying a Pioneer plasma at a home theater boutique at $2000 versus going to Best Buy and buying it for $1000.

Completely different. If you buy a Pioneer at Best Buy or at another store it will still say Pioneer on it so when you are using it in your industry and a 3rd party will only guarantee that their DVR will work with a Pioneer you are covered.

Now on the other hand if Nissan states you should use Nissan fluid only and you have a receipt that shows you did just that, then they would have a hard time stating you did not use the recommended fluid. That is insurance, doesn't make any difference what is actually in the bottle.

Now on the other hand if you are past the warranty period and you know that both the brand name and the generic brand name are actually one and the same, then certainly it makes sense to purchase the cheaper one.

Perry

[Road Ruler]

Its official. Not available anymore. J matic is all gone. Get your Matic S 2day...

If one does just a drain and fill is the new S fluid compatible with the old J fluid.

I would assume yes??

PS... The Infiniti rip off price in Canada was $12/litre for J fluid.

That works out to be $125. plus tax to totally replace the J fluid in my G and I did the job myself.Infiniti shoots themselves in the foot by these gouging tactics. I now avoid the dealer except for the odd case where I am forced to go back for whatever reason.

In the end they steal a few extra pennies from us but in the long run they loose dollars in Business.

[Poyzinous]

12 is actually a reasonable price. My dealer sells it at 15 a quart. And its fine to mix them, but don't do a drain and fill. Have it flushed.

[Road Ruler]

The cost is too high for J fluid any way you look at it.

[Goat_Wiz]

Dangit. My friend just replaced his transmission and diff fluid with royal purple. The butt dyno definitely noticed a difference. I wasn't sure if I would have the same results but it was encouraging. This thread made me a little nervous. Ugh...

[Poyzinous]

Matic S will give you 2 more hp to the wheels

[kmckis1029]

Matic S will give you 2 more hp to the wheels

got my transmission flushed with matic S last month at 34k miles... the transmission is definitly smoother

i didnt know there would be a hp increase... i guess thats the side effect of the smoothness...