Sentientbydesign wrote:You pissed him off enough to call me earlier...We spoke about him doing a write up for a custom title and I suggested a "great" title...Not safe for the kiddies eyes.
I doint understand how you think it is cheaping out on something like this. The original fluid nissan used for its matic-j was made by castrol. So does this mean if I put the castrol in my car I am cheaping out? NO. This just means that I dont feel the need to pay for an item that has been marked-up to buy through a dealer to give me that little butterfly feeling in my tummy knowing I got it from a dealer so it must be right. I dont know how many times I can say this but....THE DEALER IS NOT ALWAYS RIGHT!SteveTheTech wrote:Will they warranty your transmission if you use that? I just don't get why you would cheap out on something like this? It's like putting the cheapest tires and brakes on your car, I would personally not jeopardize my families safety with something that may cause me to get stuck, when there is something that is designed for it. Save your pennies and do the job right.
I'm sure there are only a few fluid characteristics that work well for the demanding needs of an automatic transmission. I would personally give you a 3 of 5 for your Googling skills. Of course you loose a few points for copy pasting product marketing.
The reason I am leaning the other way is from what I have seen. I get to see them when people take their cars elsewhere. Now they feel a slipping (especially during the 2/3 shift under normal to moderate throttle input) or erratic TCC operation due to a loss of fluid pressure during extended TCC duty cycles.
Nor are random people on the internet. I have done lots of things to lots or peoples cars. WTF is your point?kmech_7 wrote:THE DEALER IS NOT ALWAYS RIGHT!
You don't want me to start on the Ester oil issue againPoyzinous wrote:You I know what you're talking about dude. The sears/walmart comparison... price difference... ok. Anyway, if I was allowed to disclose certain info, you would know other reasons why some stuff is more expensive at dealers. What I can tell you is that nissan development engineers don't just inflate prices from an equal product. There are minor(though fairly significant) variances in those products. Formulas aren't the same. Think about RC cola and Pepsi and Coke. All are caramel soft drinks with pretty much the same ingredients, but different variances, etc... The product that is bottled into one space isn't just poured into another one and given a different label. They go thru other little twitches and are given, special touches, so to speak, to differenciate them from a standard product. Comprende? somewhat? ok well soak it all in. The Ester oil post was just for fun. I was hoping to hear some compliments (and criticizms from the electrons in this molecule of G owners). But now that my buzz has died down I guess there are no longer seismic perceptions of my abience...
Eh, almost, but you're on the right track. Your example doesn't exactly work because RC Cola doesn't buy their syrup from Coke or Pepsi and change it.Poyzinous wrote:I know what you're talking about dude. The sears/walmart comparison... price difference... ok. Anyway, if I was allowed to disclose certain info, you would know other reasons why some stuff is more expensive at dealers. What I can tell you is that nissan development engineers don't just inflate prices from an equal product. There are minor(though fairly significant) variances in those products. Formulas aren't the same. Think about RC cola and Pepsi and Coke. All are caramel soft drinks with pretty much the same ingredients, but different variances, etc... The product that is bottled into one space isn't just poured into another one and given a different label. They go thru other little twitches and are given, special touches, so to speak, to differenciate them from a standard product. Comprende? somewhat? ok well soak it all in. The Ester oil post was just for fun. I was hoping to hear some compliments (and criticizms from the electrons in this molecule of G owners). But now that my buzz has died down I guess there are no longer seismic perceptions of my abience...
I would bathe in that, I mean it probably costs more than a bottle of really good Tequila. Stupid GTR fluid.Sentientbydesign wrote:I know Steve will love this:
On the last part about processors one could actually compare many camcorders. For awhile during the vhs days you would find many which looked almost exactly alike. The difference was features would not be enabled on some. In the case of monitors many of the originals were done the same way right down to using the same circuit boards with sections not populated.Sentientbydesign wrote:We're going to have to split this thread, but it's good convo, so I'll keep going.
With regards to the sears comparison...There's a little more applicable comparison with a better explanation. I bought a tool at Sears. It's a hand tool. It comes with a lifetime warranty. The price of the tool was $25 + tax.
Later that same day, I went across the street to Home Depot (damn do I hate that place) and I saw the EXACT same tool for $20. The size, shape, where the machining was done EVERYTHING except for two aspects... The Sears tool had a black textured grip whereas the HD had a blue "shiny" grip and the etching was different (Craftsman vs. XXX Brand).Poyzinous,
You'd be amazed how often products are distributed under a brand name and a generic name and sold a greatly differing prices. Actually a few brands specifically say "The makers of XXX do not make private label brands"
I love when BP owns Arco and Thrifty and one sells for higher than the other on opposing street corners.
Or, my all time favorite is when Intel and AMD started intentionally "breaking" their processors so that they could be sold for a lower price in a different category (Some of the on-board memory was physically severed to downgrade performance).
Sure it's true. Nissan's only customers are people with Nissans and Infinitis. They have only a limited market to sell to, a much smaller one than say Castrol, which can make a fluid for a number of different cars across different brands. For example, both Nissan and Subaru use the Matic J, but each one sells it to either people with Nissan or Subaru cars. Castrol on the other hand, can take a fluid and have it meet numerous specifications of different cars across different brands and sell it through many more distribution channels. The fact that Castrol can do that, it lowers the price they're able to charge because they can produce in much more bulk than Nissan and Subaru can buy it at and sell it to many more people. Castrol producing it in a higher amount and being able to sell it to many millions of more people than Nissan and Subaru combined allows them to produce it cheaper, charge a lower price, and still recoup all of their production costs.pfarmer wrote:As far as the economy of scale, I don't know if that is really true. Consider the cost of tires on a new car to the manufacturer compared to what they will resell you the tire for. There is no reason that Nissan, while not manufacturing the oil could not buy it in bulk for both their new cars, their service departments, and also use it to sell individually.
While Castro may sell more oil than Nissan buys for all its cars, it doesn't mean that Nissan is not utilizing 'economies of scale' in the selling of oil in individual quarts. Once the oil is purchased in bulk for their entire business then the economies of scale most affected could well be the packaging.smockers83 wrote:
Sure it's true. Nissan's only customers are people with Nissans and Infinitis. They have only a limited market to sell to, a much smaller one than say Castrol, which can make a fluid for a number of different cars across different brands. For example, both Nissan and Subaru use the Matic J, but each one sells it to either people with Nissan or Subaru cars. Castrol on the other hand, can take a fluid and have it meet numerous specifications of different cars across different brands and sell it through many more distribution channels. The fact that Castrol can do that, it lowers the price they're able to charge because they can produce in much more bulk than Nissan and Subaru can buy it at and sell it to many more people. Castrol producing it in a higher amount and being able to sell it to many millions of more people than Nissan and Subaru combined allows them to produce it cheaper, charge a lower price, and still recoup all of their production costs.
If you want to learn more about it...zer...trade
Consider the Jiffy Lube scene. You can go to Jiffy Lube and have your transmission fluid l changed. They will tell you it is the same stuff going back using their fluid with additives to match yours. Even if that is true do you trust them to get it right (consider who owns Jiffy Lube)? In the case of my Chrysler there was suppose to be something like seven different formulations for the transmission fluid using what Chrysler supplies, what you get is based on the transmission version, something I doubt they would take the time to figure out.Poyzinous wrote:While all of you make some good points, remember also that a 'multiple use' branded product is not always the same quality product as a dedicated use product. Auto companies are sneaky, they want to survive in this very competitive business, and prove it to each other. They will make something that requires a certain product, but tweak their something so that it will perform to 90 or 95% of its total potential without a certain specific balance or key secret ingredient.
Never did I say Nissan wasn't utilizing their economies of scale. Anywhere.pfarmer wrote:While Castro may sell more oil than Nissan buys for all its cars, it doesn't mean that Nissan is not utilizing 'economies of scale' in the selling of oil in individual quarts. Once the oil is purchased in bulk for their entire business then the economies of scale most affected could well be the packaging.
In that example, again you have economies of scale. To have 7 different formulations for each different transmission, Chrysler's cost of production goes way up to produce those 7 fluids, due to the economies of scale.pfarmer wrote:The difference in cost is a small price to pay for insurance.
What is interesting here is that we are speaking of 7 different versions of the same transmission, however you could for the most part rebuild pretty much any of the transmissions using a specific rebuild kit.smockers83 wrote:
Never did I say Nissan wasn't utilizing their economies of scale. Anywhere.
What I said was...
Nissan has much smaller economies of scale compared to Castrol whether they utilize them or not (one would be stupid not to as they'd go bankrupt). If Castrol supplied Nissan with ATF with no alterations, Castrol would still be able to charge a lower price than Nissan. Granted Nissan also has to markup to recoup their costs. If all Castrol ATF was solely used for Nissans, they would sell at essentially the same price because their economies of scales are the same--the ones available in the Nissan market.
Added to this, Nissan also tries to take advantage of monopolistic benefits.
In that example, again you have economies of scale. To have 7 different formulations for each different transmission, Chrysler's cost of production goes way up to produce those 7 fluids, due to the economies of scale.
I didn't say you were. What I am pointing out is that it shouldn't be nearly so expensive unless it truely is far more expensive to produce since the actual difference in economies of scale at the individual unit probably doesn't justify the price difference if it is actually the same product.smockers83 wrote:I wasn't arguing which one you should buy, Nissan or Castrol. I was just trying to explain the main reason why Nissan's is expensive compared to stuff one can grab off the shelf.
My guess is that with the price of a replacement/repair that a dealer just may have it tested to see if it is the correct fluid and unadulterated. Probably not all that hard since the mixture is known.SteveTheTech wrote:For stock auto transmissions starting with the RE5 (02+Q) Nissan started using a different fluid with less detergents and slightly different additives.
If you are taking out the original valve body and replacing all of the seals, servos, and sealing devices. I would say you may be able to get away with something else but I wouldn't risk it if it were my car. Why risk it to save a few bucks if you are already building the trans?
This thread was started as an informative thread. If you want to start taking it off topic we can split it and you and poyzinous can sling mud at each other there.
Matic J and S are they only fluids that will not void your warranty