WARNING - Interest Check: Performance true manual rack

General discussion forum about the 240sx, and a great place to introduce yourself to the board!
a_ahmed
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Well, I've wanted this for a long time... on another forum I saw someone who to remove power steering pump properly.

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To proper:

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It was awesome and I joked "now all we need is a true manual rack".

For sh*ts and giggles I googled it and ran across one from atomic-rex.. and man is it nice. In case you don't know who atomic rex is... they are pretty well known with rx7 guys.

Anyways the one that was built for the guy was 2.4 lock to lock and a true performance manual rack conversion which also happens to weigh about 20lbs less than the stock rack (not including the 20lbs~ power steering assembly/system). Our racks are very similar so I would reckon it should be around there in that department too.

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Again I don't think most know what a true performance manual rack feels like... it includes superior precision, smoothness, response, incomparable feedbac, truly a world of difference.

People take off the power steering pump and think that's what it's suppose to be like but don't realize they are pushing with their bare hands all that fluid. Or they even 'loop the lines' which doesn't do sh*t either.

The miata and rx7 guys did a 'PROPER' depower of faster power racks but again this is a WORLD of difference. Look at it this way, F40 comes with a true performance manual rack.

To make the story short, I got in touch with atomic rex and they are more than willing.

I need now interest. I am getting one made for myself no matter what but... this could be alot cheaper and plentyful for many more if there is actual interest.

I know a few road race guys in the states would be interested... but lets see who is up to it here.

That is all...

I tried to post this in group buy section but I can't.

Thank you.
I now have about 250 miles on the car and will be able to dyno it next weekend. In putting on the miles, I have a few more observations on the rack. First, I still like it as much as at first. I keep saying how smooth and precise it is. Although it might seem like the change from 2.0 to 2.4 turns lock to lock might not make a lot of difference, it really does. It turns so fast that you cannot defocus from steering. If you glance over at something for a minute, you could end up off the road. It turns as fast as a Lotus Elise or Exige.

At speeds of 45-55 mph going straight, I have to concentrate a bit to keep it straight. Its not that it has any bump steer or follows the crown any more so than stock, but a slight movemebt of the wheel just takes it off the straight line. You or I anyway need to focus more. However, at 80-90 mph this is not an issue at all, though I can't tell you why that is.

Also, while it is very tight and smooth turning -- no slack anywhere ever -- and very precise, there is not harshness at all. There is a lot of road feel and reading of the road surface, but the solid mounts seem to eliminate any quick jarring or jolting entirely. I think any bushing would actually interject that jolting or jarring into the feel.

That's it for now. I may post an update in a few weeks, if I notice anything more. But, so far, I would strongly recommend this for anyone who likes the twisties or doesn't like the loose and strangely assisted stock unit. For anyone who has switched to looped line or Maval and likes it, this will be a tremendous swap from there. You'll go nuts.Basically the guy has a 3 rotor rx7 which is much heavier than ours cars + 3 rotor setup... at least 70lbs more per rotor. And he runs 255/40/17s fyi.

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mrgreeneyes
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what is the rough pricing of these?

a_ahmed
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I am not 100% on that but he needs to see serious interest. He will build one for me that's not a problem... but if I get enough crazy people in on this it will be much much lower obviously

So I posted this on two forums and I'd like to post elsewhere.

So please people discuss and all questions here and I can ask him all that needs to be asked.

I will be contributing my LHD hicas rack...

He just sent me the address and contact info. I won't send it today but probably next week as it's at my family's home not my own.

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simmode1
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I recently saw a thread on Zilvia about 'de-powering' our racks to make them fully manual, not just removing the power steering system... It was interesting stuff. I'll be keeping an eye on this thread...


a_ahmed
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Yeah this is a brand spanking new engineered performance rack.

The depowering ordeal as i mentioned in the thread is not the same thing, this is something BRAND NEW from scratch.

The miata and rx7 guys is where the whole depowering ordeal began. The rx7 rack comes in manual and powered... so what people did was copy the miata tutorial on their rx7 power to manual depowering of the rack. It is not just taking ps system out or looping the lines... it was filly taking it apart and removing all fluid/other unecessary power bs.

However the rx7 guys had a company make a manual rack which goes a step beyond that even more... it was better. I forget what they call it exactly

This though is like ten levels beyond even that... its a high performance manual rack... think ferrari f40

It's going to be engineered for us, period.

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simmode1
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Sounds dope. More baller stuff for 240's. Remember that cantilever rear suspension thing? Having both a true manual rack plus that would be awesome.
Modified by simmode1 at 1:44 PM 8/11/2009

hbpignosePA
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hummmm

depending on the price this might make things easier for me.

and if its designed properly you dont need P/S; but just getting rid of the pump is stupid.

get some price range facts and that will be a deciding point for me

a_ahmed
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lol not to take my own thread off topic but wth?! Who came up with cantilevar suspension for a 240? I know there was all out one off for that silviaforums.com site (or something like that, site and project went down under) but other than that no clue...

Basically I need a list, a number of people who would be interested... then I can get a quote... The more... the cheaper it will be but still with the hotness of performance.

Please list yourself or add yourself to the list. I will get one no matter what but you'd be saving myself alot of money as well as saving yourself in the long run after I get it and tell you how awesome it is lol... think future.

1. A_ahmed2.3.4.Etc...

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asoomal
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I don't get it...is it gonna feel like a car without any power steering? You know, need two big hands just to move the car an inch to the right?

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simmode1
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a_ahmed wrote:lol not to take my own thread off topic but wth?! Who came up with cantilevar suspension for a 240? I know there was all out one off for that silviaforums.com site (or something like that, site and project went down under) but other than that no clue...
zerothread/429727

Add me to the list of interested parties...
asoomal wrote:I don't get it...is it gonna feel like a car without any power steering? You know, need two big hands just to move the car an inch to the right?
Nope. It's not gonna feel like that at all. Waaay more responsive than stock. Combined with a Hicas rack and you get Holy S*** OMGlike steering.

a_ahmed
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No...

I tried to explain that in my posts...

-Just disconnecting PS will feel like SH*T!! !(*@. For many reasons, that's just a broken a** non PS power rack not working and you pushing fluid with your bare hands.

-Then there's people who 'loop' the lines but that still doesn't do s*** for you and will feel like utter garbage and you will need to have super strong hands like me (lol jk).

-Then there's the flyin miata tutorial of how to PROPERLY depower a power rack... this actually feels great... and you basically chop off/block off all holes and remove the fluid, remove the power steering components from inside the rack itself, etc... and grease her up, it is nice BUT this is not what this is.

-This is a brand spanking new true manual rack... aka engineered as a performance rack... To make the point, a ferrari f40 has a manual rack... that's what we're talking about here. Of course we don't drive a ferrari f40, but a properly designed manual rack is AWESOME!

The quote I quoted was of the guy with a HEAVIER rx7 with a 3 rotor conversion, 255s up front, boom box and full interior stating that to summarize: the steering is INSANELY precise, MORE responsive, unbelivably smooth that he can't describe it until you drive it, faster (obviously with better lock to lock), surprisingly stable at higher speeds although requires attention at 50-60mph but post that feels amazing again.

It's just win win... and on top of that he lost a good 40lbs of the front end which helps with his heavy a** 3 rotor conversion + overall weight of the car.

People... this is NOT a botchered rack 'conversion'... this is a TRUE manual rack conversion and a performance rack... I know it's a bit hard to describe or talk about as it's not common on our cars (obviously) but people have the wrong impression and experience due to NON true manual racks being considered 'depowered' (aka garbage).

I hope some of this clears somethings up...

a_ahmed
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holy sh*t, im getting that LOL... Thanks!

Okay.

1. a_ahmed2. simmode1

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noobdrftr
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ahhh..im interested but i got to focus college first.

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simmode1
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noobdrftr wrote:ahhh..im interested but i got to focus college first.
Add your name to the interest list just so we can get a price quote from the fabricator. It's not a commitment to buy...

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asoomal
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So it basically feels like the Geo Metros I drive at work, manual steering :P

1. a_ahmed2. simmode13. asoomal

hbpignosePA
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im interested as long as its a reasonable price (meaning beyond 500)

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noobdrftr
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ok well in that case then...

1. a_ahmed2. simmode13. asoomal4. noobdrftr
Modified by noobdrftr at 6:55 PM 8/11/2009

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mattblancarte
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Last car I drove without power steering was my buddy's 510. Feels very similar to driving a go kart.

Great for track use and hardcore drivers, but terrible for normal daily folks.

a_ahmed
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To respond to the guy who said "add hicas rack and itll be amazing" this is NOT me giving my hicas rack for them to modify my hicas rack... I am ONLY sending my rack to get it reverse engineered (specs/sizes/etc...).

It will be their own scratch design much like the rx7 one i posted pictures of (cad/solidworks, pics, etc...). It will be a scratch based performance design... by atomic rex. For those that dont know about atomic rex they are pretty famous with the hardcore rx7 crowd...

a_ahmed
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FYI also for the drifting crowd... they can make an extended version for more angle... i only care about road racing

Think of this as well being 2.25 lock to lock it will be much much easier to overcome slides/drifting/negotiating hairpins, etc...

Karateboy88
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Looks beautiful but not worth it in my opinion.

If you get into a tough situation you might wish you had PS. Lots of professional racers have PS. If its not broken don't fix it.

Fluids have almost no compression so you won't feel the road more just because you have a solid steering rack.

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asoomal
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And what about the rear rack?

For those who like to keep the 4WS

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legit240sx
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im interested but as my 240 will be a DD ,as well as some SCCA and some track, is it going to be a B to drive around town (as well as driving in snow)?

Karateboy88
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As far as I understand it, to offset the loss of hydaulic assistance, a manual steering rack has different gearing.

Big gear = more mechanical assistance = slower turning

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simmode1
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Here a Zilvia thread about 'De-powered Racks'. This is a little different from what the OP is proposing, but still somewhat related. In case some ppl were curious what the hell we're talking about.

http://zilvia.net/f/chat/21594....html

Ppl are pretty sharply divided on this issue. I'm neither for or against at this point. I'm just curious/interested...

a_ahmed
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Karateboy88 wrote:Looks beautiful but not worth it in my opinion.

If you get into a tough situation you might wish you had PS. Lots of professional racers have PS. If its not broken don't fix it.

Fluids have almost no compression so you won't feel the road more just because you have a solid steering rack.
This is not just a depowered or PS disconnected rack... I am trying to explain this. It's designed to be non-assisted and it is very responsive and with a shorter lock to lock easier to actually control i 'bad situations'.

Power or not, rally cars have extremely fast racks so you don't have to do a lot of man handling as you would in the same rally course as say a regular lock to lock rack.

There's alot of misconceptions and myths that have spread over the years over internet forums about 'manual racks' and 'depowered racks' etc...

It's not to be compared...

a_ahmed
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asoomal wrote:And what about the rear rack?

For those who like to keep the 4WS
It has nothing to do with the rear. I replaced my subframe with a non hicas rear, if you have 4ws in the rear it'll remain there thats it. It has nothing to do with the rear rackbut the one that you feel in ur hands.

However to keep the rear rack you'd simply have to maintain the PS pump then as the rear would require it.

Honestly I dont see no point of having hicas to me its just dead weight imho but to each his own.

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kouki munster
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asoomal wrote:And what about the rear rack?

For those who like to keep the 4WS
This needs a face palm I just don't have one handy.

a_ahmed
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legit240sx wrote:im interested but as my 240 will be a DD ,as well as some SCCA and some track, is it going to be a B to drive around town (as well as driving in snow)?
Again... its not the same like a 'depowered' rack (which is OKAY...) or power rack with ps pump disconnected (which is HORRIBLE garbage and ppl misunderstand this being 'the same' as a manual rack lol...)

it is dailyble (lol daily+livable), and definetely something worthy of track use (im building my car for road racing so yes).

It can again also be built for drifters (hint hint) with extended length for more angle and even more response... Im not personally interested in this as im not into drifting but this is an option the guy was offering me as well for those that are.

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mattblancarte
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Honestly, I prefer to have power steering. I've encountered minor slips at speed without power steering, and the steering wheel is WAY harder to deal with...

If you're an experienced drifter or road racer, you will already know what you prefer. For the Average Joe's, this mod is not the best idea IMHO.


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