Holset VGT Electronic Controller Project
Re: Holset VGT Electronic Controller Project (Mistaken)
I think this one confirms the fact that it will do PWM.
But this one makes it sound like there is a I/O that isnt wired up from the factory, might take some repinning to get it to work properly.
But this one makes it sound like there is a I/O that isnt wired up from the factory, might take some repinning to get it to work properly.
Hemi, great find on the patents!
Yea that seems to make a lot of sense, and also explains why the SRA documentation on Delphi's site suggests PWM control. They don't offer a CAN version or a PWM version, instead they wanted to offer a CAN AND PWM version.
I also will give it a shot with a basic PWM signal to see how it responds. As an aside, if you think about it from an electrical standpoint it does seem a little funny. They would have to have the lines on the CAN side of the CAN transceiver come back to the micro somehow?! Or maybe using a PWM signal with can signal levels so that the transciever outputs the normal CAN RX, however it looks like a PWM and the micro muxes the CAN rx line to a PWM line?!
Too bad the patent doesn't go more into the specifics.
Yea that seems to make a lot of sense, and also explains why the SRA documentation on Delphi's site suggests PWM control. They don't offer a CAN version or a PWM version, instead they wanted to offer a CAN AND PWM version.
I also will give it a shot with a basic PWM signal to see how it responds. As an aside, if you think about it from an electrical standpoint it does seem a little funny. They would have to have the lines on the CAN side of the CAN transceiver come back to the micro somehow?! Or maybe using a PWM signal with can signal levels so that the transciever outputs the normal CAN RX, however it looks like a PWM and the micro muxes the CAN rx line to a PWM line?!
Too bad the patent doesn't go more into the specifics.
Re: (WhatsADSM)
Yah it would be great if we could find a data sheet on this thing or something. It would be nice knowing what frequency it needs for the PWM and what not. Monday night or tuesday im going to start testing on it to see if i cant get it to move. An electrical engineer from work is going to be giving me a hand tuesday if I cant get it to work on monday.
There are a lot of people very interested in this project, not only in the nissan community but across a wide range of the car culture. It should be a pretty awesome accomplishment (and look good on my resume) if this works.
There are a lot of people very interested in this project, not only in the nissan community but across a wide range of the car culture. It should be a pretty awesome accomplishment (and look good on my resume) if this works.
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blownhemi
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Re: Holset VGT Electronic Controller Project (Mistaken)
Yeah, unfortunately it's only a patent, so it's vague, with no specific practical application data. It has been clear for a while from the Delphi website, that the actuator can be controlled on both PWM and CAN, but on there there was no datasheet, only PR stuff. The question is, whether they use the same wires, or are they different wires, but Holset excluded the PWM option...
I think it is technically doable, that they share. On Microship uC-s, special functions (RS323, A/D, USB+-) always share pins with general purpose I/O, maybe ST does too, with the CAN wires. It is just a question of flipping bits to switch which function of the pin is used. So the PWM and CAN wires could be the same. Also, the wire may be split, and go into both the CAN, and some GPIO pin. Looking at the flowchart, it listens to only on one "interface" at a time anyway, prioritizing CAN, so it won't mistake CAN frames for PWM. And there's no way a PWM signal will make up a valid CAN frame.
Mistaken, I don't know, what your plans are exactly with the unit, but if you decide to get an inside look at the actuator, look for the part no. of the ST, so that we can retrieve the datasheet. With a datasheet, we can expect to be a lot smarter:- it will list the pins I/O voltage levels, that should give us the voltage levels needed for the generated PWM. As for the frequency, it's mostly irrelevant, as the control information is carried in the duty cycle. Probably around 100kHz-1MHz should be fine, but the frequency limits for input pins should also be listed there- just generally looking at the pinout, and where the CAN wires are connected (keep a beeping multimeter handy! ) should give an idea about whether PWM and CAN share the wires, and is it one wire, or two wire differential, etc. If you're really lucky, the ST even has a PWM type input pin, and CAN lines are connected to it, too (if not, A/D pins can be suspects for a PWM input, too).
If you don't want to take the unit apart just yet, but feed it PWM on the CAN wires, I'd try generating a PWM signal, that slowly (few seconds) cycles from, say 10% to 90%, that should definitely get it out of its default powerup state. I'd try it with 2,5V peak first, then 3,3V, then 5V, and also make it a differential output, too (normal signal on CANhi, negated signal on CANlo, in sync as close as possible). CAN is differential, too, because this way it's much more insensitive to noise and EM radiaton/interference, I wouldn't be surprised, if the PWM signal would be expected in differential form, too. These actuators are intended for heavy duty industrial environments after all.
Something about J1939 voltage levels: http://www.can-expo.ru/files/J1939.pdf, although without knowing whether CAN and PWM go into the same pins on the ST, not much conclusion can be drawn from this...
WhatsADSM, do you have this turbo also? Have you maybe pulled it apart already?
I think it is technically doable, that they share. On Microship uC-s, special functions (RS323, A/D, USB+-) always share pins with general purpose I/O, maybe ST does too, with the CAN wires. It is just a question of flipping bits to switch which function of the pin is used. So the PWM and CAN wires could be the same. Also, the wire may be split, and go into both the CAN, and some GPIO pin. Looking at the flowchart, it listens to only on one "interface" at a time anyway, prioritizing CAN, so it won't mistake CAN frames for PWM. And there's no way a PWM signal will make up a valid CAN frame.
Mistaken, I don't know, what your plans are exactly with the unit, but if you decide to get an inside look at the actuator, look for the part no. of the ST, so that we can retrieve the datasheet. With a datasheet, we can expect to be a lot smarter:- it will list the pins I/O voltage levels, that should give us the voltage levels needed for the generated PWM. As for the frequency, it's mostly irrelevant, as the control information is carried in the duty cycle. Probably around 100kHz-1MHz should be fine, but the frequency limits for input pins should also be listed there- just generally looking at the pinout, and where the CAN wires are connected (keep a beeping multimeter handy! ) should give an idea about whether PWM and CAN share the wires, and is it one wire, or two wire differential, etc. If you're really lucky, the ST even has a PWM type input pin, and CAN lines are connected to it, too (if not, A/D pins can be suspects for a PWM input, too).
If you don't want to take the unit apart just yet, but feed it PWM on the CAN wires, I'd try generating a PWM signal, that slowly (few seconds) cycles from, say 10% to 90%, that should definitely get it out of its default powerup state. I'd try it with 2,5V peak first, then 3,3V, then 5V, and also make it a differential output, too (normal signal on CANhi, negated signal on CANlo, in sync as close as possible). CAN is differential, too, because this way it's much more insensitive to noise and EM radiaton/interference, I wouldn't be surprised, if the PWM signal would be expected in differential form, too. These actuators are intended for heavy duty industrial environments after all.
Something about J1939 voltage levels: http://www.can-expo.ru/files/J1939.pdf, although without knowing whether CAN and PWM go into the same pins on the ST, not much conclusion can be drawn from this...
WhatsADSM, do you have this turbo also? Have you maybe pulled it apart already?
Yes I just picked up the turbo yesterday.
PWM does not work. The connector is most definately CAN voltages. I generated a CAN-dominant PWM signal varying from 10% to 90% duty cycle, at the following frequencies:10, 30, 100, 1000. It ignored it all, and you could clearly see the actuator talking can on the non-dominant times (i.e. PWM active low) of the PWM signal. I personally don't think there is any need to test any higher as at a high frequency such as 10k or 100k because the PWM signal at those rates would almost surely look like a CAN bit. Only other thing I could think is to potentially overdrive a voltage onto one or both of the legs of the can bus and hope that the actuator uses that to determine to go into PWM mode. I just didn't want to do that because you run a high risk of damaging the CAN transceiver since IIRC the maximum differential voltage isn't too high. And well, I'd rather keep the CAN intact
IMO just because they have a patent on it doesn't mean that they actually have to implement it that way. The company I work for has so many patents on various things, and I'd bet maybe half of them we actually implement.
PWM does not work. The connector is most definately CAN voltages. I generated a CAN-dominant PWM signal varying from 10% to 90% duty cycle, at the following frequencies:10, 30, 100, 1000. It ignored it all, and you could clearly see the actuator talking can on the non-dominant times (i.e. PWM active low) of the PWM signal. I personally don't think there is any need to test any higher as at a high frequency such as 10k or 100k because the PWM signal at those rates would almost surely look like a CAN bit. Only other thing I could think is to potentially overdrive a voltage onto one or both of the legs of the can bus and hope that the actuator uses that to determine to go into PWM mode. I just didn't want to do that because you run a high risk of damaging the CAN transceiver since IIRC the maximum differential voltage isn't too high. And well, I'd rather keep the CAN intact
IMO just because they have a patent on it doesn't mean that they actually have to implement it that way. The company I work for has so many patents on various things, and I'd bet maybe half of them we actually implement.
Re: (WhatsADSM)
Damn dude your beating me to all of the testing lol. I was praying you werent posting that you got it to move before me.
I picked up a spare actuator off ebay to test on / disect. That way i wont chance ruining the one on my good turbo. If I can get it torn down enough without damaging it we should be to find out what STmicrocontroller is in there and where the PWM has to be tapped into.
On a side no I did some digging on the ST website looking at a few pinouts of possible microcontrollers and none of them had a common CAN/PWM pin, they were all seperate pins. So I had a bad feeling it wasnt going to work. But when I saw that you had posted i got a little nervous lol.
Modified by Mistaken at 12:53 PM 12/3/2009
I picked up a spare actuator off ebay to test on / disect. That way i wont chance ruining the one on my good turbo. If I can get it torn down enough without damaging it we should be to find out what STmicrocontroller is in there and where the PWM has to be tapped into.
On a side no I did some digging on the ST website looking at a few pinouts of possible microcontrollers and none of them had a common CAN/PWM pin, they were all seperate pins. So I had a bad feeling it wasnt going to work. But when I saw that you had posted i got a little nervous lol.
Modified by Mistaken at 12:53 PM 12/3/2009
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blownhemi
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Re: (WhatsADSM)
Nope, no, cracking it is definitely not worth it. If there is a safe way to disassemble it non-destructively, only then. Maybe a 100% fubar unit, on sale very very cheap, would be worth performing this kind of surgery on.
Re: (blownhemi)
Yah dont ruin a good turbo Whatadsm, I'll have a spare actuator to dissassemble early next week.
BTW did it move to a home position at all when you powered it up? I read that there is a safe mode it goes into when it doesnt pick up a valid signal that moves it to a specified location.
Also i dont think you could go into production with a control unit if it wasnt CAN based, unless you sell the turbo and controller together since it will most likely have to be opened up and modified. So CAN still might be the only route.
Whatadsm...any chance you have access to a CAN controller to see what messages it is pulsing to the ECU?
BTW did it move to a home position at all when you powered it up? I read that there is a safe mode it goes into when it doesnt pick up a valid signal that moves it to a specified location.
Also i dont think you could go into production with a control unit if it wasnt CAN based, unless you sell the turbo and controller together since it will most likely have to be opened up and modified. So CAN still might be the only route.
Whatadsm...any chance you have access to a CAN controller to see what messages it is pulsing to the ECU?
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blownhemi
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Re: (WhatsADSM)
Actually, frequency might be the key... if the ST is receiving the PWM with a quick A/D unit, too low a frequency will either charge the sample and hold capacitor in the A/D to the high or the low level. Frequency would have to be magnitudes higher than the A/D samping time to get the mean value of the signal.And if it's using a timer to measure the PWM signal, it could overflow during the period of no voltage level change in the signal, if the frequency is too low. I'd try higher frequencies, I don't think it can hurt the pins. Keep in mind, even if you transmit with the bitrate of CAN, you COULD make CAN bits, but definitely not a CAN frame, with valid fields, and a mathing CRC.
Did you send in a differential signal, or just a normal signal on CAN-hi?
I really hoped something would come of this, although I thought all along that the easier solution for Delphi would have been to have the PWM lines seperate, and easier for Holset not to lead a wire out for those pins.
As a side note, how do you know, which are the power, ground, can-hi and can-lo wires? Is it written on the housing somewhere (sorry, I haven't yet seen this turbo up close and personal) ?
Did you send in a differential signal, or just a normal signal on CAN-hi?
I really hoped something would come of this, although I thought all along that the easier solution for Delphi would have been to have the PWM lines seperate, and easier for Holset not to lead a wire out for those pins.
As a side note, how do you know, which are the power, ground, can-hi and can-lo wires? Is it written on the housing somewhere (sorry, I haven't yet seen this turbo up close and personal) ?
Re: (WhatsADSM) (blownhemi)
There is a wiring diagram floating around a few forums for it. Outside pins are power and ground, inside are CAN Hi and CAN low.
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blownhemi
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Re: (Mistaken)
Are you sure about that? By this diagram, it seems more like first two connectors are power and ground, second two are CAN-Hi, CAN-Lo. The wiring diagram numbering isn't in the same order as the depiction of the connector front face below...
Re: (WhatsADSM) (Mistaken)
That is not exactly true. It very common for all mechanical systems which do not have an absolute encoder to home to torque or travel limit or something. That way you have a known home position along with an encoder count. Basic premise... that is totally normal operation even if the unit DID connect.Mistaken wrote:Yah dont ruin a good turbo Whatadsm, I'll have a spare actuator to dissassemble early next week.
BTW did it move to a home position at all when you powered it up? I read that there is a safe mode it goes into when it doesnt pick up a valid signal that moves it to a specified location.
Also i dont think you could go into production with a control unit if it wasnt CAN based, unless you sell the turbo and controller together since it will most likely have to be opened up and modified. So CAN still might be the only route.
Whatadsm...any chance you have access to a CAN controller to see what messages it is pulsing to the ECU?
Ultimately CAN IS the best route, although it will likely be the most difficult.
I am in the middle of doing some CAN disection work on it now. I have some data on it, but will know more later today... just stuck at work now.
Like I said before I put the correct differential CAN dominant high signal on the bus.blownhemi wrote:Actually, frequency might be the key... if the ST is receiving the PWM with a quick A/D unit, too low a frequency will either charge the sample and hold capacitor in the A/D to the high or the low level. Frequency would have to be magnitudes higher than the A/D samping time to get the mean value of the signal.And if it's using a timer to measure the PWM signal, it could overflow during the period of no voltage level change in the signal, if the frequency is too low. I'd try higher frequencies, I don't think it can hurt the pins. Keep in mind, even if you transmit with the bitrate of CAN, you COULD make CAN bits, but definitely not a CAN frame, with valid fields, and a mathing CRC.
Did you send in a differential signal, or just a normal signal on CAN-hi?
I really hoped something would come of this, although I thought all along that the easier solution for Delphi would have been to have the PWM lines seperate, and easier for Holset not to lead a wire out for those pins.
As a side note, how do you know, which are the power, ground, can-hi and can-lo wires? Is it written on the housing somewhere (sorry, I haven't yet seen this turbo up close and personal) ?
IMHO I'm not going to spend my time trying every PWM frequency to try to get it to work. If it was being sampled through a RC and ADC I'm not sure how it's own can messages wouldn't get in the way... or other messages on the bus for that matter. ?! when would it know to sample? The more I think about it, although I would love for it to be a simple PWM signal I just don't think it is in the cards. It might however be in the firmware and just not brought out to the hardware. Again I am not willing to look at that quite yet until I am sure the CAN won't lead anywhere.
I am also POSITIVE i have it wired correctly. It is talking, and I am sure of it.
Can't see the picture at work but the CAN lines are NOT in the middle with power and ground on the outside. Can lines are next to each other on one side with power and ground next to each other on the other side.Mistaken wrote:There is a wiring diagram floating around a few forums for it. Outside pins are power and ground, inside are CAN Hi and CAN low.
Re: (WhatsADSM) (WhatsADSM)
Yah i didnt look at the Diagram before i posted it, its not a pinout just a color reference. So your right on the pintout. When you get home and can see the picture it tells you which wires are what colors just to be 100% sure.
Re: (WhatsADSM) (Mistaken)
Yea its probably the same one I have... If so there should be pin numbers by the connector blocks.Mistaken wrote:Yah i didnt look at the Diagram before i posted it, its not a pinout just a color reference. So your right on the pintout. When you get home and can see the picture it tells you which wires are what colors just to be 100% sure.
Re: (WhatsADSM) (WhatsADSM)
Yah i see em.
At the rate your going your gonna have it working before i even get my turbo...
At the rate your going your gonna have it working before i even get my turbo...
Re: (WhatsADSM) (Mistaken)
Oh... I dunno about all that. I am going to give it a shot over J1939. However from what I have seen thus far it might not be too easy or standard. Maybe I can try to either give holset or delphi an email and ask nicely if they will divulge any information on their J1939 application layer... Otherwise I will have to find a local with a truck and do some sniffing. What model dodges do these things come on?Mistaken wrote:Yah i see em.
At the rate your going your gonna have it working before i even get my turbo...
Re: (WhatsADSM) (WhatsADSM)
the 07-09 dodge 2500 and 3500 i believe, with the 6.7l cummins.
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blownhemi
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Re: (WhatsADSM)
What are you using for a J1939 controller? I wonder what info it is sending out over CAN. According to the delphi site, it could be the position feedback. Which is probably proprietary... in that case one of the PGN ID's around it, +1 or -1, might be the position command.Do you have a copy of the J1939-71 SAE paper?
http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=810685 - post #9, seems someone already asked them, but that shouldn't keep you from trying. If you ask them, could you somehow sneak in a question whether or not they use the same wires for CAN and PWM, like you need it for, say, connector design/choice? CAN is of course the cleaner and more fit-for-an-engineer solution, but just in case...
http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=810685 - post #9, seems someone already asked them, but that shouldn't keep you from trying. If you ask them, could you somehow sneak in a question whether or not they use the same wires for CAN and PWM, like you need it for, say, connector design/choice? CAN is of course the cleaner and more fit-for-an-engineer solution, but just in case...
Re: (WhatsADSM) (blownhemi)
If you guys find a contact over at delphi or holset, I can always play the "I'm an engineering student working on a class project" card.
I'll ask around at work if anyone has a friend/contact at either of the 2 that will talk to me. ITW is a big company, someone has to know someone.
I agree also that CAN is the most fit for an engineering solution, but it may not be the most practical unless we can find someone with a truck. I tried looking around for a used ECU/wiring harness but they are impossible to find. The only motorset I found for one was nearly 8000, so that option is out.
We could always try to make a simple inline box that would monitor the signal between the ECU and Turbo, run a program such as CANalyzer on it or something to record the traffic.
I'll ask around at work if anyone has a friend/contact at either of the 2 that will talk to me. ITW is a big company, someone has to know someone.
I agree also that CAN is the most fit for an engineering solution, but it may not be the most practical unless we can find someone with a truck. I tried looking around for a used ECU/wiring harness but they are impossible to find. The only motorset I found for one was nearly 8000, so that option is out.
We could always try to make a simple inline box that would monitor the signal between the ECU and Turbo, run a program such as CANalyzer on it or something to record the traffic.
I played with it a bit yesterday and yea they are proprietary commands. It ignores the standard stuff from J1939/71.
That actuator is a frustrating little bastard. Funny enough I asked it if it supported some of the proprietary stuff that I see it spitting out on the wire and it said no... ?! But when I asked it its address then it gave it to me happily. Almost seemed like it didn't want to tell me too much about what it knew.
I wrote a basic dissector for the J1939 stuff last night so moral of the story is I should just need a truck now and do some logging. Hopefully those trucks don't have too much else on the CAN bus, otherwise that would definately make my life harder.
Hmm, hemi that's not a half bad idea... I guess without a truck I could give it a shot to write something to the write to PGNs around its proprietary stuff... Or to scan all proprietarys. Who knows maybe the brute force method would actually yield some results?!
FWIW I emailed delphi/holset, although I fully expect to get nothing back in return.
That actuator is a frustrating little bastard. Funny enough I asked it if it supported some of the proprietary stuff that I see it spitting out on the wire and it said no... ?! But when I asked it its address then it gave it to me happily. Almost seemed like it didn't want to tell me too much about what it knew.
I wrote a basic dissector for the J1939 stuff last night so moral of the story is I should just need a truck now and do some logging. Hopefully those trucks don't have too much else on the CAN bus, otherwise that would definately make my life harder.
Hmm, hemi that's not a half bad idea... I guess without a truck I could give it a shot to write something to the write to PGNs around its proprietary stuff... Or to scan all proprietarys. Who knows maybe the brute force method would actually yield some results?!
FWIW I emailed delphi/holset, although I fully expect to get nothing back in return.
Re: (WhatsADSM)
What kind of hardware are you using to do the CAN testing?
What if you were to find a dealer that would let you take a truck home for the night to "show your wife"/"see if it fits in the garage" ... and either back probe the CAN lines from the ecu to the turbo, or make an adapter to plug inline and interrupt it.
I personally dont know anyone with a diesel truck that new. The only person i know with a cummins drives one thats pre-VGT.
What if you were to find a dealer that would let you take a truck home for the night to "show your wife"/"see if it fits in the garage" ... and either back probe the CAN lines from the ecu to the turbo, or make an adapter to plug inline and interrupt it.
I personally dont know anyone with a diesel truck that new. The only person i know with a cummins drives one thats pre-VGT.
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blownhemi
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Re: (WhatsADSM)
Did it send a lot of different proprietary PGNs, or were there just a few that it kept repeating?Yeah, it's completely up to the implementer what parts of the standard they support, nothing is mandatory. IIRC not even the address claiming.
Mistaken, the fake buyer idea is actually not bad... feel like expanding your horizon into social engineering as well? The worst that can happen is, they say no.
Mistaken, the fake buyer idea is actually not bad... feel like expanding your horizon into social engineering as well? The worst that can happen is, they say no.
Re: (WhatsADSM) (blownhemi)
The only problem is that im 20 years old. Most car dealerships wouldnt take me seriously. Also I dont have any equipment to log the CAN communications even if I was able to get a truck.
Maybe a quick post on the Diesel forums will find us someone close to either myself or WHATADSM a little north from me. I'm sure one of the guys would be willing to let you back probe into the wiring as long as you dont damage anything, even if I have to throw him a few dollars for his time.
Maybe a quick post on the Diesel forums will find us someone close to either myself or WHATADSM a little north from me. I'm sure one of the guys would be willing to let you back probe into the wiring as long as you dont damage anything, even if I have to throw him a few dollars for his time.
Re: (WhatsADSM) (Mistaken)
On a side note the spare actuator i bought shipped out this morning. It's coming from texas so i should hopefully have it early next week.
Yea I am a member of a local car club with a fair amount of vehicles. I made a post there, and hopefully someone will be able to help, but no luck thus far.
I am honestly not *that* attached to project to actually screw around with a dealer to see if I could borrow the truck for a day and then say I am not interested. I just remembered though that I have an old friend that I thought bought like an 05 dodge diesel a year or two ago. Maybe if I am lucky I'll call him up and it will be the right model, although it sounds like it might need to be a newer model. Otherwise the guy that I am investigating the turbo for works at a roofing company and I kind of wonder if they have any of those trucks, again probably not too likely since it is so new.
I am honestly not *that* attached to project to actually screw around with a dealer to see if I could borrow the truck for a day and then say I am not interested. I just remembered though that I have an old friend that I thought bought like an 05 dodge diesel a year or two ago. Maybe if I am lucky I'll call him up and it will be the right model, although it sounds like it might need to be a newer model. Otherwise the guy that I am investigating the turbo for works at a roofing company and I kind of wonder if they have any of those trucks, again probably not too likely since it is so new.
Re: (WhatsADSM)
I'm working on a couple big leads for trucks right now. I'll let you know in a few days. The main thing is I just need to figure out how to get the information needed once I get a truck.
Will hooking up a simple J1939 CAN microcontroller in line with the turbo and ECU be enough to recieve the commands? Or is there a special type of controller/program I will need?
I really am new to this aspect of programming, being that I am a ME, my only background is Parker Hannifan plc programming language and some ladder logic programming.
This whole project is gonna be a huge learning experience from me, and is a slightly daunting task, which is why I appreciate everyones help with it.
Will hooking up a simple J1939 CAN microcontroller in line with the turbo and ECU be enough to recieve the commands? Or is there a special type of controller/program I will need?
I really am new to this aspect of programming, being that I am a ME, my only background is Parker Hannifan plc programming language and some ladder logic programming.
This whole project is gonna be a huge learning experience from me, and is a slightly daunting task, which is why I appreciate everyones help with it.