CA18DET and engine management systems!

Discuss topics related to the CA18DE and CA18DET series engines.
boost_boy
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I watched the megasquirt write-up and thought that was a pretty good job in itself. But comparing it to other systems and saying that it's better leaves a bunch of room for arguement after arguement. So to all you: Haltec, Microtec, Tec I,II&III , AEM, Megasquirt, PowerFC, Chip burners, JWT, S-AFC, and SDS users, this is your thread to get your swirve on and express yourselves.

I strongly caution each and everyone who participates to stay on topic and do not let this thread bleed over to any other threads or you will have wasted your time typing because it will be deleted no questions asked. So have fun, be informative and get to the point.................

Dee

I'll start this debate by saying, after having the opportunity to tune various systems as well as piggy-back other tuners, in my honest opinion, the best bang for the buck is the SDS which stands for simple digital systems. I've been the proud owner of SDS computers for over 5 years and I have yet to have blown an engine due to tuning. I have posted various dynographs to prove how stable the system is even under the most novice of tuners programming as long as you know the engine you're dealing with.

The bottom line is, tune with whatever system you want to tune with, it's your money and your choice.


MegasquirtCA
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If you want to debate on best bang for the buck than Megasquirt wins hands down no matter what way you look at it.

SDS costs what $1100+ depending on which one you get.

Megasquirt costs $250, $400 assembled with warranty. and $200 in other parts like sensors, wires, etc etc or less if you want to stick with stock parts. And laptops are cheap enough that you can get them for $100-$500 depending on features. So if you need a laptop its still under the SDS price tag and you have a laptop that serves more than tuning you can go use it for school, p0rn, etc etc.

Now you stated why the hell would you want a laptop when you can use your hand held programmer well now theirs no denying fact that the hand held programmer is not gonna display every important parameter of the motor, the little screen wont allow it thus why all the major tuning system, and race teams use laptops, shoot even some of the serious systems require up to 3 laptops. When we'll be doing tuning we're gonna have 3 sets of displays to give information Laptop, Megaview (same as your hand held programmer), and a the Innovate O2 display. And also if your tuning by yourself while driving than you deserve to crash, regardless of what you think on how good you are driving while tuning. Either do the driving and have some one do the tuning, or do the tuning and have some one drive.

Actually from several SDS users they said Megasquirt was easier to install, awhile ago when I spoke to float he also said megasquirt looked easier.

I truly dont see how SDS is cleaner to install, from all the pics I've seen my Megasquirt was cleaner than all of them, the only evidence of megasquirt was my crank wheel and sensor everything else is not even visible aside from your normal harness.

I wouldnt say SDS is proven on the CA18DET, I guarentee you more CA18DET owners are running megasquirt than SDS, some Europe and Japanese CA18's are running it.

You make it seem like the CA18DET is some bastard dog that is unique. The CA18DET is a normal 4 stroke internal combustion engine theirs nothing fancy or special about it, it doesn't have special powers or a special brain, the Nissan gods havent come down and said the CA18DET will only work amazing with SDS. If a system thats proven on other motors its gonna work on the CA.

By the way megasquirt has already proven it self on reliability, performance, tuning, versatility. Megasquirt has been put on 17,000 rpm motorcycles, 1400whp+ motors, track cars, Europe sport cars. So to say because you think a few people are running SDS on the CA18DET with success that its proven is absurd.

Also you might want to check the article that Grass Roots Motorsports did on megasquirt, you'd be surprise on their thoughts and trust me these guys know what their talking about and have triple the experience than anyone on this board.

Only downside to SDS is you have to use their ignition system, with megasquirt your only limited to your imagination.

Megasquirt has a double edge sword, the vast amount of information does tend to make it overwhelming.

DOHCtor Boost
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Ok here is my 2 cents on the subject. I have used megasquirt haltech and now I'm I'm using microtech on my ca18det. Each system has it's ups and downs. The downside of the megasquirt system is the lack of resolution.

On the other side megasquirt and SDS are simple systems to install and setup. But to my opinion they are by far not the best ems's on the market.

Motec, AEM, Autronic, fast etc....are to my opinion the best simply because they are more advance and have more features. But are not easy to install and setup.

MegasquirtCA
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totally agree with you DOHCtor Boost.

My argument is quite simple megasquirt is the best bang for the buck, you get amazing performance for little money. Is it the best system out their, nope not even close. The best systems out their cost more than brand new cars.

The amazing part of megasquirt is that its open source so if you got the skills and knowledge you can add in stuff to suit your needs if its not already their, if your good and making software and have vast knowledge of tuning you can make software for megasquirt. Plus megasquirt has lots and lots of cool little things that you can program, you know stuff like nitrous injection, fan control, limiters, launches, touch button map settings.

Hey DOHC which version of MS did you use.

boost_boy
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This thread was more geared for the CA18DET since this is a CA serie
DOHCtor Boost wrote:Ok here is my 2 cents on the subject. I have used megasquirt haltech and now I'm I'm using microtech on my ca18det. Each system has it's ups and downs. The downside of the megasquirt system is the lack of resolution.

On the other side megasquirt and SDS are simple systems to install and setup. But to my opinion they are by far not the best ems's on the market.

Motec, AEM, Autronic, fast etc....are to my opinion the best simply because they are more advance and have more features. But are not easy to install and setup.
Everyone is entitled to their preferences on which system they'd rather tune. I think we all wish we could get our hand on motec systems, but I can't justify spending that much loot on a system, when I'm not a full time racer. And no MegasquirtCA, I don't make the CA seem like some bastard dog that is unique. It is what it is which is the reason we as community own one and are having this discussion. It's what you or whomever lurks this forum chose to use or are interested in. It's a wonderful engine that I happen to know much about, but I never said that SDS is the only system for the CA, so please don't tag me like that.

The CA18DET is however: Unique, a definite gift from the nissan gods and have been labeled as one of nissan's best engines, and under the hood of my cars, my customers' cars, and this forum's members cars, so me giving my $.02 on what aftermarket system has been installed with success should not be countered by the installation of an aftermarket system you feel is better than what is currently being used. In case you have forgotten or even cared to pay attention to, we do have a member here who chose the haltech system for tuning and not once did I or anyone ever say that the SDS is better than the haltech for the CA.

Once again you are entitled to you opinion, but starting-up foolish arguements about megasquirt being better than SDS is "Childish" .

I'm not a huge fan of the microtec system, but I have friends who own an extremely popular tuning shop that swears by it. And when they found out that I was one of the tuners of the SDS systems here in south florida, they didn't try and compare the two. I honestly think the microtec system is a much more cleaner install than the megasquirt system, but who cares, huh! As long as it works for whomever, you achieve your goals with whatever system you chose, and you get the biggest bang for your buck.

I chose SDS and so have some of the other members around here for our CA18s, you guys chose the megasquirt system for your little project car, that's all good. Show us around here just how good megasquirt really is instead starting a useless pissing match. And I am a firm believer that SDS is not the best system on the market, but I am the owner of 2 of them and I do damn well tuning them, too!

Dee

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tyrannix
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i tried megasquirts site, maybe i missed itdoes the megasquirt have to have a boost sensor on the ecu? so that you have to have a boost line running to the ecu? (and im guessing it can control boost and/or have output to a numeric display if youre ninja at programming)

what programming language does it use, or is it proprietary?

and from what you say, and what im reading, i could program different maps, or boost levels for different situations, then wire buttons or switches to run a macro for easy access instead of clicking on a laptop when you want to run higher boost for example (i read the example they had about throttle controlled fuel maps, looks like fun)

MegasquirtCA
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tyrannix wrote:i tried megasquirts site, maybe i missed itdoes the megasquirt have to have a boost sensor on the ecu? so that you have to have a boost line running to the ecu? (and im guessing it can control boost and/or have output to a numeric display if youre ninja at programming)

what programming language does it use, or is it proprietary?

and from what you say, and what im reading, i could program different maps, or boost levels for different situations, then wire buttons or switches to run a macro for easy access instead of clicking on a laptop when you want to run higher boost for example (i read the example they had about throttle controlled fuel maps, looks like fun)
Megasquirt utilizes a Motorola 2.5 Bar Map sensor which is mounted on the board itself and has a tiny hole in the case to run a vacuum line. Someone people dont like this, they have yet to explain why they said they dont like that when people with boost gauges run lines the same way. Either way you can have the map sensor extended out etc etc its up to you. Megasquirt allows you to run several MAP sensors anywhere from 1 bar to 10bar if they exist as long as you know the properties of the sensor, multimeter come in handy for this stuff.

Thankfully the people who created Megasquirt took care of everything for you, no programming skills required. As for the numeric display its called MegaView its pretty much like the SDS hand held programmer but it serves as a handy tuning device, and a series of like 30 gauges. It displays things such as your MAP, Barometric Kpa, Battery Voltage, Accel %, Decel%, boost levels, it even has AFR display with AFR goal assesment it shows numeric value like those expensive AEM gauges, it also says Coolant Temp, Intake Temp, RPM, says injector sequence, coil charge.

I believe megasquirt utilize the programing language C.

here is a link about programing. http://www.megasquirt.info/Tutorial.htm

If you can think it, and its logical then chances are you can do it on megasquirt. Just something simple, for example Megasquirt has I believe over 200 port settings what this means I can have megasquirt control several things utilizing some of the readings from the sensors. For example Fan Control I had 2 choices either run it via a switch or megasquirt, obviously megasquirt would be the better choice. What I do is take the wires from the fan and splice into say my FIDLE since my FIDLE turns off at say 160* F I can have my fans turn on at like 175* F. So I go into megatune click port settings and pick FIDLE then I click enable and pick coolant sensor as the information to use to turn on the fans and put in the settings of temps to turn on and off for example I would put 175* F to turn and 170* F to turn off that way whenever it goes to 174 and 175 its not constantly turning on and off. Hope you understood that.

I'm doing research to see if I can do something RPM based to see if I can control the secondary butterflies.

Heres a nice read if you guys want to read about it.

http://www.grmotorsports.com/n...t.php
Modified by MegasquirtCA at 11:22 AM 4/3/2006

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tyrannix
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well, when i heard that, i think i need to read up on megasquirt more now

thats what i do for a living, network security and programming c++ was my first real language and what im most comfortable with (c is just a tad different)

if sensors feed values into variables, then i can program it to do anything ( windows up at 120mph automatically? sure.. butterflies open or close whenever you want... no problem) as long as its reading values and i can output something (like your fan control)

int TEMP0 = 170;int TEMP1 = 175;int TEMP2 = 180;

int main{ case { (fan1 == 0 && water_temp > TEMP1) { fan1 = 1 } (fan2 == 0 && water_temp > TEMP2) { fan2 = 1 } (fan1 == 1 && water_temp < TEMP0) { fan1 = 0 } (fan2 == 1 && water_temp < TEMP1) { fan2 = 0 }}return 0;}

thats a 2 minute piece of code that should work for your fan situation (depending on what variables are fed into of course)

if its that easy with megasquirt, id love it

how does SDS compare on programibility?


MegasquirtCA
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tyrannix looks good, unfortunatly I wouldnt be able to answer that since I dont know how to program, only thing I can do is HTML :P

go to msefi.com just throw a question in their and post what you made should probably work. their are ridiculous amounts of people who just do this crap for fun creating code for megasquirt to do crazy stuff. They got people doing stuff like Traction Control, Automatic Control etc etc.

Bowling and Grippo also created GPIO (General Purpose Input Output) Board which is a add on board to Megasquirt II since Megasquirt II is CAN (Controller Area Network). The GPIO board allows for 40 Input and Output. You can do things like have 4 EGT sensors 1 on each cylinder and you'll be able to tune for each cylinder. Also the router board is coming out soon which will allow for sequential injection, and use stock parts like the CAS.

As for SDS programability, most likely not in its stock form, you'd probably have to hack it. The handheld programmer limits you tremendously.

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float_6969
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MegasquirtCA wrote:Now I'm not gonna deny the fact that SDS is a great system, after all its based off the Megasquirt system and we all know megasquirt is an amazing system.
This is an outright lie. SDS has been around for 13 years. They released their first system to the public, the EM-1A, in the early 1990's. I would like to see the source of your information that SDS is based off of the Megasquirt system.
MegasquirtCA wrote:If you want to debate on best bang for the buck than Megasquirt wins hands down no matter what way you look at it.

SDS costs what $1100+ depending on which one you get.

Megasquirt costs $250, $400 assembled with warranty. and $200 in other parts like sensors, wires, etc etc or less if you want to stick with stock parts. And laptops are cheap enough that you can get them for $100-$500 depending on features. So if you need a laptop its still under the SDS price tag and you have a laptop that serves more than tuning you can go use it for school, p0rn, etc etc.
First of all you're not comparing Apples to Apples. Yes, SDS CAN cost $1100+. That is also including all BRAND NEW parts, sensors, ect. Personally, I only paid $800 for my system, and then another $50 for the bracket for the hall sensor. I know that you assemble your system from used junkyard parts. I will agree that they probabally won't pose any problem, but I KNOW that mine won't be causing me any problem ANYTIME soon.

As far as your reasoning for the laptop, for me, personally, none of that is applicable. And if you've ever tried to use a $100 laptop to surf the internet with, you'd understand how biased a statement that is.

As far as the little screen not displaying everything at once, you're completely correct. But from my experience, it DOES display just about as much information as I can read at any given second. Maybe that's just me...

And, although you don't say it outright, you make it sound as if SDS HASN'T proven itself. This is completely untrue. Just simply browsing around their website, will show that it's being used very successfully, right now, on many race cars, offroad trucks, and airplanes.
MegasquirtCA wrote:Only downside to SDS is you have to use their ignition system, with megasquirt your only limited to your imagination.
Once again, a bold faced lie. That's all I have to say about it.

As was stated previously, nobody, to my knowledge, has ever said that SDS is the biggest, baddest, system out there. It is what it is. It's simple. From the first solder joint, to first fire, I had mine installed in a weekend. It started on the first try as well. This was the first standalone that I have ever installed as well, so I'm not some SDS mastertech or anything. I am very familiar with wiring and that was all I needed.

I've never tuned a vehicle before in my life. But I managed, with my SDS, on a street tune, at 7psi, on an SR T25, to put down 198rwhp. IMHO, that's nothing to scoff at.

I have absolutely no problem with Megasquirt. I personally like SDS, but have no experience with Megasquirt and can't really comment on it. But the last time I checked, you've never installed the SDS system on your car and tuned with it. In my book, that gives you just as much right to say that SDS is crap, as I have to say that Megasquirt is crap.

I have yet to understand why you INSIST upon speaking so poorly about the SDS system. You treat it as if it isn't even a real standalone system. It's as if because it doesn't require a laptop, it's sub-par.

Please, do not come onto this forum and speak as if you are the all knowing god of standalone engine management. To each his own, and if you're happy with what you've got, then I'M happy with what you've got. But don't downplay someone elses systme because you've decided yours is better. Even a SAFC has it's place...PS-I have power steering....

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iliketocrash
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so uhh does anyone have much to say about microtech? i'm just curious. i know DOHCtor Boost said he's using it but unfortunately that's the only thing he had to say about it.

MegasquirtCA
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float_6969 wrote:This is an outright lie. SDS has been around for 13 years. They released their first system to the public, the EM-1A, in the early 1990's. I would like to see the source of your information that SDS is based off of the Megasquirt system.
Megasquirt has been out since the late 80's. Their are several parts of their website where it states SDS and megasquirt have helpedd each other out, and since SDS is similar to megasquirt you decide. Shoot even some of the parts cross reference to each system.
float_6969 wrote:First of all you're not comparing Apples to Apples. Yes, SDS CAN cost $1100+. That is also including all BRAND NEW parts, sensors, ect. Personally, I only paid $800 for my system, and then another $50 for the bracket for the hall sensor. I know that you assemble your system from used junkyard parts. I will agree that they probabally won't pose any problem, but I KNOW that mine won't be causing me any problem ANYTIME soon.
Nope I compared them equally, if I remember correctly you bought your kit used. I bought mine new. As for the sensors sorry float their all new, the stuff I got from the junkyard were for mock up purposes, and start up once that was done everything was replaced with new parts. Even with everything new it still came to less than $500.
float_6969 wrote:As far as your reasoning for the laptop, for me, personally, none of that is applicable. And if you've ever tried to use a $100 laptop to surf the internet with, you'd understand how biased a statement that is.
You know theirs is more than 1 thing you can do with a laptop, you can do school work like taking notes, and running tuning programs too. I like the thought that I dont have to scroll or look at a small screen for information. With a laptop I can see all the information in Digits, Gauges at the same time and I'm able to do things much quicker and more accurate.
float_6969 wrote:And, although you don't say it outright, you make it sound as if SDS HASN'T proven itself. This is completely untrue. Just simply browsing around their website, will show that it's being used very successfully, right now, on many race cars, offroad trucks, and airplanes.
I'm glad you take things the wrong way, gives me a chance to explain it to you. Did I say SDS isnt proven NOPE never. All I said was Dee thinks SDS is proven on the CA when theirs what 5 people running SDS on CA's, to me that proved nothing just that SDS works thats all. Dee thinks megasquirt isnt proven because no one on this forum uses it, well I'm happy to inform you that their are a lot more of CA's running megasquirt than SDS. Unfortunatly they dont come on Nico as some of them are in Europe, South America, Canada and Nico wont do them any good since its not in their proper language. Their are lots of people running megasquirt on race cars, offroad trucks, airplanes, go karts, motorcycles, dirt bikes, pretty much any internal combustion motor, I believe also diesels, Megasquirt even has the capability to run 16 cylinders.
float_6969 wrote:As was stated previously, nobody, to my knowledge, has ever said that SDS is the biggest, baddest, system out there. It is what it is. It's simple. From the first soldier joint, to first fire, I had mine installed in a weekend. It started on the first try as well. This was the first standalone that I have ever installed as well, so I'm not some SDS mastertech or anything. I am very familiar with wiring and that was all I needed.
Did someone come out and say its the baddest system out their nope. But you do have Dee going around brainwashing everyone making everyone think that SDS is only gonna work great with the CA . I'm glad it was simple for you SDS better be simple if its got "Simple" in its name. Megasquirt was simple for me as well not only did I learn new things such as building a PCB, a deeper understanding of electrical systems and wiring. It took 7 hrs to build megasquirt and stimulator, 30 mins for setting up the program, and probably 8 hours to build the harness. Pretty much my project is a first for everything first car, first swap, first standalone etc etc.I went in with no experience or much knowledge on wiring and came out with the knowledge to tackle most wiring projects.
float_6969 wrote:I've never tuned a vehicle before in my life. But I managed, with my SDS, on a street tune, at 7psi, on an SR T25, to put down 198rwhp. IMHO, that's nothing to scoff at.
Unfortunatly I wont be able to provide figures as my turbo took a **** and the car isnt drivable yet, I have other things to take care of such as the interior.
float_6969 wrote:I have absolutely no problem with Megasquirt. I personally like SDS, but have no experience with Megasquirt and can't really comment on it. But the last time I checked, you've never installed the SDS system on your car and tuned with it. In my book, that gives you just as much right to say that SDS is crap, as I have to say that Megasquirt is crap.
Your right I've never installed or tuned with SDS, but I am fortunate enough to have a close friend who is a amazing tuner/mechanic and has been doing this type of work longer than most people on the CA forum. His list of tuned cars, and power levels is enough to convince me that I'll be in good hands. I trust his opinion and experience and if he says something isnt good than its for a damn good reason.
float_6969 wrote:I have yet to understand why you INSIST upon speaking so poorly about the SDS system. You treat it as if it isn't even a real standalone system. It's as if because it doesn't require a laptop, it's sub-par.
If you read again my post I've actually stated SDS is a great system, its biggest problem is the lack of laptop support. Like you said SDS is your first system until you tune with a laptop and another system wether it be megasquirt, haltech, AEM, etc etc. than you cant comprehend how better it is to tune via a laptop. Like I mentioned before megasquirt has a little programmer as well called Megaview, does everything the SDS programmer does to but I myself even know not to use that to tune, its a awesome gadget when you dont require to use a laptop to do little modifications.
float_6969 wrote:Please, do not come onto this forum and speak as if you are the all knowing god of standalone engine management. To each his own, and if you're happy with what you've got, then I'M happy with what you've got. But don't downplay someone elses systme because you've decided yours is better. Even a SAFC has it's place...
I dont think I'm all knowing trust me I'm far from that, I just began my road when it comes to automobiles. As you can see it bothers you that I think megasquirt is better than SDS, well it bothers me that this forum makes it out to be the greatest thing since Sliced Bread.

One of the reasons I went with Megasquirt was because no one on here had an idea about megasquirt except for a select few, shoot even some of them talked so much garbage and once I came on here they were blown away.You can already see the huge success, I was asked by several members to make a write up, in less than a week 2 other CA owners bought megasquirt kits. Not a Sr already knows how amazing megasquirt is since he's done numerous installs, he's almost ready to install his kit.
float_6969 wrote:PS-I have power steering....
Its all good I bought my car without working Power Steering, I removed it before I did the swap and since I wasn't gonna use power steering with the CA the power steering section was perfect for the trigger and sensor. But their several ways to mount, shoot you have so many choices of ignition. I just picked what was clean, easy, and proven.

PS- I'm running 2 standalones, 1 is a backup to megasquirt

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iliketocrash wrote:so uhh does anyone have much to say about microtech? i'm just curious. i know DOHCtor Boost said he's using it but unfortunately that's the only thing he had to say about it.
Microtech is a good system, know several people who love them. No experience other than friends testimonies.

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float_6969 wrote:This is an outright lie. SDS has been around for 13 years. They released their first system to the public, the EM-1A, in the early 1990's. I would like to see the source of your information that SDS is based off of the Megasquirt system.
Thank you. took the words out of my mouth.

I'm a big fan of MS, but its not the best ecu. Not even close.

MS-II features 12x12 maps (3 of them)Wolf3D has 16 mapsMotec M4 has 40 maps

MS-II has 144 points per map (12x12 duh)Wolf3D has 128 per mapHaltech E6K has 544 or 704 per mapMotec has atleast 840 points per map

MS-II uses a 16-bit Motorolla chip running at 24MHzHaltech E6K runs an 8 bit chip at 16MHzMotec M4 runs a 32 bit chip at 33MHz

The ONLY things that stops me from getting a SDS is that a 6 cylinder is capped at 9500~9999 RPMS and the hand set. 4 cyl can go up 15,000RPM though.

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MegasquirtCA wrote:Megasquirt has been out since the late 80's. Their are several parts of their website where it states SDS and megasquirt have helpedd each other out, and since SDS is similar to megasquirt you decide. Shoot even some of the parts cross reference to each system.
Megasquirt came out in 2001. Before that, Bruce Bowling and Al Grippo were working on the EFI332 project. That project started in 1995, 4 year after the first SDS came out. The EFI332 was hard core - it used a Motorola 32bit processor and was just about impossible for most people to use.

And not that it makes a big difference, but SDS is in Calgary - and preatty proud of it it seems, while Grippo lives in VA and I think Bowling lives in MD.

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float_6969
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First and foremost, no hard feelings for the following. Just saying my $.02....
MegasquirtCA wrote:Megasquirt has been out since the late 80's. Their are several parts of their website where it states SDS and megasquirt have helpedd each other out, and since SDS is similar to megasquirt you decide. Shoot even some of the parts cross reference to each system.
As I said before, I'd like to see PROOF. Unless SDS is lying about it, and I called them and asked, they said they don't have any association with Megasquirt. I SUPPOSE it's possible that the creators of SDS and Megasquirt may have worked together at some point, but to say that SDS is based off of Megasquirt as we know it today is ludicrous.
MegasquirtCA wrote:Nope I compared them equally, if I remember correctly you bought your kit used. I bought mine new. As for the sensors sorry float their all new, the stuff I got from the junkyard were for mock up purposes, and start up once that was done everything was replaced with new parts. Even with everything new it still came to less than $500.
I did buy mine used, but I still replaced all the sensors (except for the hall sensor) for very little money. (less than $100 IIRC)
MegasquirtCA wrote:You know theirs is more than 1 thing you can do with a laptop, you can do school work like taking notes, and running tuning programs too.
Not everyone who's is tuning a CA is in school anymore my friend.
MegasquirtCA wrote:I like the thought that I dont have to scroll or look at a small screen for information. With a laptop I can see all the information in Digits, Gauges at the same time and I'm able to do things much quicker and more accurate.
I will agree that it could be easier to tune if I could view all 3 gauge screen simultaneously. But that doesn't mean you can't tune with it either. As I (and others) have proven, it works just fine.
MegasquirtCA wrote:I'm glad you take things the wrong way, gives me a chance to explain it to you. Did I say SDS isnt proven NOPE never. All I said was Dee thinks SDS is proven on the CA when theirs what 5 people running SDS on CA's, to me that proved nothing just that SDS works thats all. Dee thinks megasquirt isnt proven because no one on this forum uses it, well I'm happy to inform you that their are a lot more of CA's running megasquirt than SDS. Unfortunatly they dont come on Nico as some of them are in Europe, South America, Canada and Nico wont do them any good since its not in their proper language. Their are lots of people running megasquirt on race cars, offroad trucks, airplanes, go karts, motorcycles, dirt bikes, pretty much any internal combustion motor, I believe also diesels, Megasquirt even has the capability to run 16 cylinders.
Wait, you confused me there. So you're saying that you're NOT saying that SDS isn't a proven system, but that since it's been tried on 5 CA motors, that means it's not proven, only that it works? I'll bet you WAY more people use a SAFC than SDS or Megasquirt, but does that make it a proven solution? And I don't think Dee has put down Megasquirt, or any other system for that matter, he's merely posted up personal EXPERIENCES with various other systems. And, if you read SDS's website, it can be used on any fuel injected, even cylindered motor (Though maybe not to 16 cylinders, but that's not applicable in this medium) . Regardless, I'm not saying that SDS or Megasquirt is or isn't proven, only that your point in this last paragraph is weak.
MegasquirtCA wrote:Did someone come out and say its the baddest system out their nope. But you do have Dee going around brainwashing everyone making everyone think that SDS is only gonna work great with the CA . I'm glad it was simple for you SDS better be simple if its got "Simple" in its name.
Brainwashing? Come on now...
MegasquirtCA wrote:Unfortunatly I wont be able to provide figures as my turbo took a **** and the car isnt drivable yet, I have other things to take care of such as the interior.
Yea, I saw your videos Hehehe

I could keep going, and we could do this back and forth till our fingertips blister, but we won't get anywhere. All I'm going to say is that if you're going to continue to post on this forum, please do us all a favor and use the spell and grammar checks.


boost_boy
Posts: 7162
Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2002 7:28 am
Car: B12 sentra w/built CA18DET, B12 sentra w/fully-built CA18DET, S13 coupe w/ CA18DET, S13 hatch w/CA18DET, 2002 maxima SE
Location: Miami, FL.
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First of all, I said Megasquirt hasn't been proven around the CA community because I only tend to NICO, not SXOC or any others and up until recent, it was all talk and no action. And as for you MegasquirtCA or Pumaking or whatever you call yourself, saying I'm brainwashing someone, tells me you must think about me a lot to be able to make such an observation. Brainwashing? Why would I do something like that and what do I gain? I guess I brainwashed float into buying an SDS system, huh! Or brainwashed all the members to go out and buy CA18DET engine sets, huh!

My cars run with SDS standalone engine management systems. My customers cars run with SDS, microtec, haltec, SAFC, or whatever they prefer because it's not my job to convince them otherwise. I just install, satisfy my peeps and get paid.

I thought your write-up was pretty useful to those who may be interested in taking the megasquirt route, but where do one find the extra time for a write-up on something you haven't even gained sucess at, yet! But you had to go and try and down-play a computer system that not only sells extremely well, but is extremely competitive to boot. You never once and you won't ever hear me try and deter grown men and women from doing what they want with their money.

If you want to go out and buy a haltec, AEM EMS, Megasquirt, Microtec, or whatever, that's you and not me. I could really care less what you buy. I don't have a problem with sharing my experiences with our members even down to the success of my SDS systems on my cars and my customers' cars.

We have one member that uses the haltec, we have several members that use SDS, we have several members who have tried to burn their own chips, and I'm pretty sure there are other members who have other systems that they use, but don't post enough to talk about them; especially our Aussie mates.

You started this megasquirt -vs- SDS garbage and your car isn't even functioning enough to convince me that it is what you say it is. I never heard of megasquirt until you guys mentioned it on this forum a while back, so I assume since you started this debate, that your car is going to bad@$$. Hurry-up because I sure as hell can't wait to see how you guys tune this thing.

Dee


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fanta
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This thread is going nowhere. Remarks on either side of this issue serve no purpose.

Please keep it strictly to the discussion of the various ECU setups on the market.

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tyrannix
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ive been looking at both megasquirt and SDS sites

megasquirt, what limitations does not having the sequential injection module have for you now

and from the looks sofar, you cant plug an SDS into a computer at all? please tell me otherwise, even the PFC has an adapter that can display/tweak and load/save maps or whatever

edit> i found my answers about sequential injection on motecs site

so which does the megasquirt use, semi sequential or batch?

from motecs site: http://www.motec.com/definitions.htm

Sequential Fuel Injection - Sequential means that each injector for each cylinder is triggered only one time during the engine's cycle. Typically the injector is triggered only during the intake stroke. True sequential injection requires the ECU to know not only where top dead center is, but also which half of the cycle the engine is on. TDC on a 4 stroke occurs 2 times during the cycle, once on compression and once on exhaust. MoTeC references all timing events that occur within the ECU, to Top Dead Center Compression. This generally requires an input on the engine's camshaft to provide the ECU with a SYNC signal. Once the ECU is synched, injection timing can be optimized to provide the most efficient mixing of fuel and air into the cylinder. Control of injection timing can lead to increases in midrange torque while decreasing emissions and fuel consumption.

Semi-Sequential Fuel Injection - Semi-Sequential means that 2 or more cylinder's injectors are triggered at the same time, but only 1 time during the engine's cycle. This requires the ECU to be synched with the engine's cycle. Typically injection timing is retarded from the optimum timing point for full sequential by an angle which is equal to 1/2 the angle between 2 cylinders in crankshaft degrees. On a V8 Chevrolet, the injectors for cylinders 1 and 8 would be triggered at the same time. They would be triggered 45 degrees late for cylinder number 1 and 45 degrees early for cylinder number 8. Degrees between 1 and 8 = 90 ; 1/2 of 90 = 45. Semi-sequential allows optimization of injection timing which typically leads to increases in midrange torque and a reduction in fuel consumption for equivalent power compared which Batch fire.

atch Fire - Batch fire means that 2 or more injectors are triggered at the same time once every crankshaft revolution. If the ECU is synched with the engine's cycle, the injection timing can only be half optimized as fuel is injected both on the intake stroke and on the power stroke. Companion cylinders are paired in batch fire mode similar to wasted spark ignition modes. The advantage of batch firing is that the ECU needs only to know where TDC is. This means that a sync on the cam is not required. The disadvantage to batch firing is that the Injector Dead Time is doubled for the engine's cycle. This leads to a decrease in fuel flow and typically requires a larger, less efficient injector to be used to make up for the loss of flow. On High Horsepower applications this means the idle quality will suffer tremendously.

Modified by tyrannix at 11:51 AM 4/5/2006
Modified by tyrannix at 12:09 PM 4/5/2006

MegasquirtCA
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Car: 240sx

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boost_boy wrote: First of all, I said Megasquirt hasn't been proven around the CA community because I only tend to NICO, not SXOC or any others and up until recent, it was all talk and no action. And as for you MegasquirtCA or Pumaking or whatever you call yourself, saying I'm brainwashing someone, tells me you must think about me a lot to be able to make such an observation. Brainwashing? Why would I do something like that and what do I gain? I guess I brainwashed float into buying an SDS system, huh! Or brainwashed all the members to go out and buy CA18DET engine sets, huh!
AS for brainwashing wether its on purpose or just speaking yes you have. I speak to a lot of our CA members and we all discuss about ideas and their projects and when I ask them about engine managment they go SDS, of course I go why and they say because of Dee's post.
boost_boy wrote: I though the write-up was pretty useful to those who may be interested in taking the megasquirt route. BUt you had to go and try and down-play a computer system that not only sells extremely well, but is extremely competitive to boot.
Glad you like my write up, everyone else did too I didnt have to down play it, its been down played numerous times in the past.
boost_boy wrote:We have one member that use haltec, we have several members that use SDS, we have several members who have tried to burn their own chips, and I'm pretty sure there are other members who other systems that they use, but don't post enough to talk about them; especially our Aussie mates.
But since those aussie guys dont post in Nico their systems arent proven right.
boost_boy wrote:You started this megasquirt -vs- SDS garbage and your car isn't even functioning enough to convince me that it is what you say it is. I never heard of megasquirt until you guys mentioned it on this forum a while back, so I assume since you started this debate, that your car is going to bad@$$. Hurry-up because I sure as hell can't wait to see how you guys tune this thing.
boost_boy wrote:In the meantime, my customer and our member "Overboosted180"s car is up and running with an SDS system with an MSD DIS-2 system factored in and it idles perfectly with 1000cc injectors and high performance cams. As a matter of fact, his didn't catch on fire, so I will be able to deliver the car for cash tomorrow .
Shows a lot on your character, the fact that my car caught on fire was a freak accident that I had no control of. Part of it was due to a failed compression fitting, and a hacked up lower engine harness that was caused by the previous owner, and part was my fault for not throughly checking the harness, I guess thats the difference between you and me, the fact I know when somethings my fault instead of blaming something or someone else.

Float as for the SDS and Megasquirt of course their is no association, and I apologize if my statement was absurd that SDS is based off megasquirt. SDS and Megasquirt before they even called it megasquirt just chatted and thought up ideas, shared thoughts even though Megasquirt at the time was just a fuel controller. Ignition didnt come into play after several years later.

MegasquirtCA
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Tyrannix

their isnt any limitations to not having sequential injection.

Their have been numerous megasquirted motors achieving 1400hp and fuel isnt a problem. As long as you can deliver the fuel megasquirt can control it.

Bowling and Grippo came out with the router board for sequential injection because some people wanted sequential injection.

Their have been several debates about sequential, batch,bank injection some say batch/bank have cooling effects on the valve.

SDS manual says its a Non-sequential injection.

Megasquirt is Bank Injection, it controls 2 banks of injectors. For example on 4 cylinder I have 1 and 4 as 1 bank, 2 and 3 as another bank.

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tyrannix
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i finally found it on the SDS site, says its batch also

but does running either batch or semi sequential *really* have an effect on emissions at idle? (like for people who actually have an inspection, or worse SMOG to deal with)

from everything im reading, both SDS and megasquirt sites would have me believe that batch is actually better than sequential at high revs because it allows more fuel to be in the mixture, so you can get more power from the same size injectors

BTW, megasquirt runs on straight assembly language, not C (from the site)its more difficult to program, but ultimatly you have more/better control

being a computer geek by trade, im planning on having a 12 volt 'desktop' micro ATX computer inside my car with a touchscreen, so having PC compatibility is something im looking for

and that semi-sequential injection with 2 banks, on a CA 1-3-4-2, it would inject on 1 and 4 @TDC and 3 and 2 @ BDC ? so there would be 2 injector pulses per cylinder for every time the intake valves open?

edit> about both systems, can you save/load complete maps and settings so you can have your inspection map, then your street map, and a track map if you want to ... or am i thinking too much into it... im a programmer, only been a car guy for about a year and a half now. plastigauge scared me at first, when i had to assemble my engine myself im trying to get all the info i can to make an informed purchase, and hope that my questions will help answer other people's who may not feel comfortable asking.


Coldspawn
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tyrannix wrote:but does running either batch or semi sequential *really* have an effect on emissions at idle? (like for people who actually have an inspection, or worse SMOG to deal with)
It matters a few things, like injector size, cams, etc. If you have a "sniffer" only test (good luck with SMOG), you can dial in the a/f to Stoichiometric ratio and have good cat, you will pass. I have passed without a cat on 750cc injectors.
tyrannix wrote:from everything im reading, both SDS and megasquirt sites would have me believe that batch is actually better than sequential at high revs because it allows more fuel to be in the mixture, so you can get more power from the same size injectors
More goes into it then that.
tyrannix wrote:and that semi-sequential injection with 2 banks, on a CA 1-3-4-2, it would inject on 1 and 4 @TDC and 3 and 2 @ BDC ? so there would be 2 injector pulses per cylinder for every time the intake valves open?
Yes, 2 injectors fire at the same time (different cylinders). It would fire 1&4 at TDC, then 2&3 at TDC (BTDC, but you get the point). So it fires injectors every 180* of crank angle.
tyrannix wrote:edit> about both systems, can you save/load complete maps and settings so you can have your inspection map, then your street map, and a track map if you want to
Yes. The only reason you would want a street and a track map is if you are running different octane with either map. If you are just running pump gas (91/93), you will only need a "street" map.
boost_boy wrote: First of all, I said Megasquirt hasn't been proven around the CA community because I only tend to NICO, not SXOC or any others and up until recent, it was all talk and no action.
Why does it matter if it works on a CA? If it works on a single plane crank, 4 stroke, 4-cylinder engine, it will work on a CA.
boost_boy wrote: In the meantime, my customer and our member "Overboosted180"s car is up and running with an SDS system with an MSD DIS-2 system factored in and it idles perfectly with 1000cc injectors and high performance cams. As a matter of fact, his didn't catch on fire, so I will be able to deliver the car for cash tomorrow
Cheap shots? Coming from a man that built the manifold on that car. Why would you pair 1&2 and 3&4 cylinders (looks like from the pics, better pics if I am wrong). That thing is going to flow like crap. Open a physics book.

Modified by Coldspawn at 7:59 PM 4/5/2006

boost_boy
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Car: B12 sentra w/built CA18DET, B12 sentra w/fully-built CA18DET, S13 coupe w/ CA18DET, S13 hatch w/CA18DET, 2002 maxima SE
Location: Miami, FL.
Contact:

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There you guys go reading what you want to read. Ummm, sorry, but I didn't build the manifold "Coldspawn or turbogixxer" or whoever you are. But after test driving the car with it's owner, phyiscs/smysics it twirls that 60-1 just fine and it is where it will stay. As for everything else, get back to the topic or this puppy gets locked. It's really starting to get boring, so start talking about engine management and don't worry about me or what I do with what I do it with. Go Megaquirt.....................

Dee

81na ZX
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tyrannix wrote:but does running either batch or semi sequential *really* have an effect on emissions at idle? (like for people who actually have an inspection, or worse SMOG to deal with)
No. Most cars, especially from the early 90s/late 80s ran batch OEM. Its much, much better than TBI

nismoplsr
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When i was going stand alone i looked into several systems. They included SDS, Autronic, Microtech, Motec,TEC3, and Haltech. Several factors went into my decision.

I cannot remember all the details for each system but i will saya few words on why i chose to go with the Haltech E6K.

First was price, some of the very nice systems were a fair amount more cash. Motec obviously is expensive but they are a good system hense why many serious race teams use Motec. The TEC3 was also expensive around $2500 for the setup needed.

Second i was looking for something that had an easy install. With the Haltech i was able to keep the stock CAS and also the ignitor. At the time i did not want to be bothered to install any hal effect sensors ar the such. I didnt like the idea of mounting the control boxs for the TEC3 or SDS and running plug wires, there is a reason Nissan spent all the money and put the COP setup on the engine way ahead of its time. Look at all new cars.

I was also looking for something that is laptop controlled. I did not want to look at a small digital display and have to run through the maps with a few buttons. I know Dee likes to be able to quickly grab the hand controller and change a few things on the go and not have to lug around a laptop. Well I would rather just spend a few hours on a day street tuning then fine tune some more on a dyno and be happy with the tune and just drive the car.

Im sure there are more things such as specific features that some systems will do and others wont but that is the jist of it for now.

Arguing about what system is better is stupid and i feel like i hate mankind more from reading the previous posts. This thread should be here to give tips and advice on the different systems for the guys looking to go with a stand alone. Everyone will be looking for different things in their ow interests and almost any system out there will run the CA so after that it is just personal preference and or what a budget will allow. Maybe a mod can go back and delete all the non relavent post in here or else no one will actually read it for what it is worth.


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tyrannix
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ok, you have a haltec, which model?

you kept the cas and ignitor, is that an option, or do you have to (could you run another form of crank sensing if you wanted to? like the hall sensor type deal)

im assuming that you wired your own harness, what kind of sensors are you running? (like egt vs o2, or both? , knock sensor?)

is it possible to have a hand controller on the haltec, or is it straight PC interface for modifying?

do you have to purchase the software, and with that software can you save and/or load maps/settings under different profiles if you wanted to?

can you wire additional things to be activated (like electric fans, or the secondary butterflies... or 'windows up at 120 mph' can you do it?)

and does it have a programming language (megasquirt uses its own assembly language, which looks decently powerful after i read all the possible variables and operators)

and does it do the semi-batch injecting and/or control a second set of injectors (example, injecting an anti-detonation compound on a secondary set of injectors at x RMP or Y knock value instead of retarding the timing)

im trying to read all the info from all the major standalone sites, but thats basically the info i look for on them

CJ

nismoplsr
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tyrannix wrote:ok, you have a haltec, which model?

E6K, i had bought this before they came out with the E6X and E11

you kept the cas and ignitor, is that an option, or do you have to (could you run another form of crank sensing if you wanted to? like the hall sensor type deal)

You can run all different types of pickups including a regualar Hall effect. I wanted to keep it simple so i ran the stock CAS

im assuming that you wired your own harness, what kind of sensors are you running? (like egt vs o2, or both? , knock sensor?)

I started with the Haltech flying lead harness. I had to seperate the wiper control harness from the engine harness. Then just wired up all sensors and injectors and ignitor and stuff. For sensors i am running IAT(intake air temp),water temp,3 bar map, CAS.

is it possible to have a hand controller on the haltec, or is it straight PC interface for modifying?

Haltech sells a fuel/ignition timing trip unit. It is just a box with a knob that will fine trim either maps at the current "bar".

do you have to purchase the software, and with that software can you save and/or load maps/settings under different profiles if you wanted to?

You can DL the softare for free off of their website but the unit comes with the most up to date version. You can save as many maps as you want on the laptop but you have to hook up the laptop to switch them, the new E6X has internal memory you can store 2 maps and just flip a switch you wire up to change them

can you wire additional things to be activated (like electric fans, or the secondary butterflies... or 'windows up at 120 mph' can you do it?)

Yes Fan controls, secondary runners, boost control, turbo timer, antilag, NOS retard, no lift shift. Not so sure about the windows up ;-)

and does it have a programming language (megasquirt uses its own assembly language, which looks decently powerful after i read all the possible variables and operators)

No editing the programming here unless your real good, it is not open source

and does it do the semi-batch injecting and/or control a second set of injectors (example, injecting an anti-detonation compound on a secondary set of injectors at x RMP or Y knock value instead of retarding the timing)

dont remember all the possibilities, but right now i am only running batch fire injection with sequential ignition dues do output limitations, but you can run full sequential everything if you use a different ignitor.

im trying to read all the info from all the major standalone sites, but thats basically the info i look for on them

Check the sites carfully they all will tell you all the capabilities of each[b/]CJ

MegasquirtCA
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Car: 240sx

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tyrannix wrote:i finally found it on the SDS site, says its batch also

but does running either batch or semi sequential *really* have an effect on emissions at idle? (like for people who actually have an inspection, or worse SMOG to deal with)

from everything im reading, both SDS and megasquirt sites would have me believe that batch is actually better than sequential at high revs because it allows more fuel to be in the mixture, so you can get more power from the same size injectors

from what I gathered on the msefi forums sequential injection is more beneficial in the lower rpm range, when you get in the higher rpms the injectors are staying open much longer to the point where they dont close.

BTW, megasquirt runs on straight assembly language, not C (from the site)its more difficult to program, but ultimatly you have more/better control

being a computer geek by trade, im planning on having a 12 volt 'desktop' micro ATX computer inside my car with a touchscreen, so having PC compatibility is something im looking for

If you did that I'm pretty sure you'd have a kickass setup on any laptop enabled setup.

edit> about both systems, can you save/load complete maps and settings so you can have your inspection map, then your street map, and a track map if you want to ... or am i thinking too much into it... im a programmer, only been a car guy for about a year and a half now. plastigauge scared me at first, when i had to assemble my engine myself im trying to get all the info i can to make an informed purchase, and hope that my questions will help answer other people's who may not feel comfortable asking.

Of course you can setup several maps, I'm pretty sure you can also get into it where you can even have it change at a certain RPM such as Alpha N if you so wish to. There are lots of possibilities with megasquirt.

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tyrannix
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so, talk to me about hall effect sensors (or a simple link about assembly)

i understand the concept, sounds great, im asking about actual assembly

how do you attach the magnets to the pulley? some kind of glue im guessing?

what happens if a magnet comes off or something? has it ever happened to you? (im guessing that it will go into a safety mode or shutdown after it reads a few cycles that dont look correct? hopefully?)

and the backside of the crank is the best place for the hall sensor, correct? (so you have absolute timing control? would you need to use a timing light to verify if you were to use a cam gear for teh sensor? i saw a built 4age that had a hall sensor on the exhaust cam... i cant see any possible benefit from that?

CJ


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