Everyone is entitled to their preferences on which system they'd rather tune. I think we all wish we could get our hand on motec systems, but I can't justify spending that much loot on a system, when I'm not a full time racer. And no MegasquirtCA, I don't make the CA seem like some bastard dog that is unique. It is what it is which is the reason we as community own one and are having this discussion. It's what you or whomever lurks this forum chose to use or are interested in. It's a wonderful engine that I happen to know much about, but I never said that SDS is the only system for the CA, so please don't tag me like that.DOHCtor Boost wrote:Ok here is my 2 cents on the subject. I have used megasquirt haltech and now I'm I'm using microtech on my ca18det. Each system has it's ups and downs. The downside of the megasquirt system is the lack of resolution.
On the other side megasquirt and SDS are simple systems to install and setup. But to my opinion they are by far not the best ems's on the market.
Motec, AEM, Autronic, fast etc....are to my opinion the best simply because they are more advance and have more features. But are not easy to install and setup.
Megasquirt utilizes a Motorola 2.5 Bar Map sensor which is mounted on the board itself and has a tiny hole in the case to run a vacuum line. Someone people dont like this, they have yet to explain why they said they dont like that when people with boost gauges run lines the same way. Either way you can have the map sensor extended out etc etc its up to you. Megasquirt allows you to run several MAP sensors anywhere from 1 bar to 10bar if they exist as long as you know the properties of the sensor, multimeter come in handy for this stuff.tyrannix wrote:i tried megasquirts site, maybe i missed itdoes the megasquirt have to have a boost sensor on the ecu? so that you have to have a boost line running to the ecu? (and im guessing it can control boost and/or have output to a numeric display if youre ninja at programming)
what programming language does it use, or is it proprietary?
and from what you say, and what im reading, i could program different maps, or boost levels for different situations, then wire buttons or switches to run a macro for easy access instead of clicking on a laptop when you want to run higher boost for example (i read the example they had about throttle controlled fuel maps, looks like fun)
This is an outright lie. SDS has been around for 13 years. They released their first system to the public, the EM-1A, in the early 1990's. I would like to see the source of your information that SDS is based off of the Megasquirt system.MegasquirtCA wrote:Now I'm not gonna deny the fact that SDS is a great system, after all its based off the Megasquirt system and we all know megasquirt is an amazing system.
First of all you're not comparing Apples to Apples. Yes, SDS CAN cost $1100+. That is also including all BRAND NEW parts, sensors, ect. Personally, I only paid $800 for my system, and then another $50 for the bracket for the hall sensor. I know that you assemble your system from used junkyard parts. I will agree that they probabally won't pose any problem, but I KNOW that mine won't be causing me any problem ANYTIME soon.MegasquirtCA wrote:If you want to debate on best bang for the buck than Megasquirt wins hands down no matter what way you look at it.
SDS costs what $1100+ depending on which one you get.
Megasquirt costs $250, $400 assembled with warranty. and $200 in other parts like sensors, wires, etc etc or less if you want to stick with stock parts. And laptops are cheap enough that you can get them for $100-$500 depending on features. So if you need a laptop its still under the SDS price tag and you have a laptop that serves more than tuning you can go use it for school, p0rn, etc etc.
Once again, a bold faced lie. That's all I have to say about it.MegasquirtCA wrote:Only downside to SDS is you have to use their ignition system, with megasquirt your only limited to your imagination.
Megasquirt has been out since the late 80's. Their are several parts of their website where it states SDS and megasquirt have helpedd each other out, and since SDS is similar to megasquirt you decide. Shoot even some of the parts cross reference to each system.float_6969 wrote:This is an outright lie. SDS has been around for 13 years. They released their first system to the public, the EM-1A, in the early 1990's. I would like to see the source of your information that SDS is based off of the Megasquirt system.
Nope I compared them equally, if I remember correctly you bought your kit used. I bought mine new. As for the sensors sorry float their all new, the stuff I got from the junkyard were for mock up purposes, and start up once that was done everything was replaced with new parts. Even with everything new it still came to less than $500.float_6969 wrote:First of all you're not comparing Apples to Apples. Yes, SDS CAN cost $1100+. That is also including all BRAND NEW parts, sensors, ect. Personally, I only paid $800 for my system, and then another $50 for the bracket for the hall sensor. I know that you assemble your system from used junkyard parts. I will agree that they probabally won't pose any problem, but I KNOW that mine won't be causing me any problem ANYTIME soon.
You know theirs is more than 1 thing you can do with a laptop, you can do school work like taking notes, and running tuning programs too. I like the thought that I dont have to scroll or look at a small screen for information. With a laptop I can see all the information in Digits, Gauges at the same time and I'm able to do things much quicker and more accurate.float_6969 wrote:As far as your reasoning for the laptop, for me, personally, none of that is applicable. And if you've ever tried to use a $100 laptop to surf the internet with, you'd understand how biased a statement that is.
I'm glad you take things the wrong way, gives me a chance to explain it to you. Did I say SDS isnt proven NOPE never. All I said was Dee thinks SDS is proven on the CA when theirs what 5 people running SDS on CA's, to me that proved nothing just that SDS works thats all. Dee thinks megasquirt isnt proven because no one on this forum uses it, well I'm happy to inform you that their are a lot more of CA's running megasquirt than SDS. Unfortunatly they dont come on Nico as some of them are in Europe, South America, Canada and Nico wont do them any good since its not in their proper language. Their are lots of people running megasquirt on race cars, offroad trucks, airplanes, go karts, motorcycles, dirt bikes, pretty much any internal combustion motor, I believe also diesels, Megasquirt even has the capability to run 16 cylinders.float_6969 wrote:And, although you don't say it outright, you make it sound as if SDS HASN'T proven itself. This is completely untrue. Just simply browsing around their website, will show that it's being used very successfully, right now, on many race cars, offroad trucks, and airplanes.
Did someone come out and say its the baddest system out their nope. But you do have Dee going around brainwashing everyone making everyone think that SDS is only gonna work great with the CA . I'm glad it was simple for you SDS better be simple if its got "Simple" in its name. Megasquirt was simple for me as well not only did I learn new things such as building a PCB, a deeper understanding of electrical systems and wiring. It took 7 hrs to build megasquirt and stimulator, 30 mins for setting up the program, and probably 8 hours to build the harness. Pretty much my project is a first for everything first car, first swap, first standalone etc etc.I went in with no experience or much knowledge on wiring and came out with the knowledge to tackle most wiring projects.float_6969 wrote:As was stated previously, nobody, to my knowledge, has ever said that SDS is the biggest, baddest, system out there. It is what it is. It's simple. From the first soldier joint, to first fire, I had mine installed in a weekend. It started on the first try as well. This was the first standalone that I have ever installed as well, so I'm not some SDS mastertech or anything. I am very familiar with wiring and that was all I needed.
Unfortunatly I wont be able to provide figures as my turbo took a **** and the car isnt drivable yet, I have other things to take care of such as the interior.float_6969 wrote:I've never tuned a vehicle before in my life. But I managed, with my SDS, on a street tune, at 7psi, on an SR T25, to put down 198rwhp. IMHO, that's nothing to scoff at.
Your right I've never installed or tuned with SDS, but I am fortunate enough to have a close friend who is a amazing tuner/mechanic and has been doing this type of work longer than most people on the CA forum. His list of tuned cars, and power levels is enough to convince me that I'll be in good hands. I trust his opinion and experience and if he says something isnt good than its for a damn good reason.float_6969 wrote:I have absolutely no problem with Megasquirt. I personally like SDS, but have no experience with Megasquirt and can't really comment on it. But the last time I checked, you've never installed the SDS system on your car and tuned with it. In my book, that gives you just as much right to say that SDS is crap, as I have to say that Megasquirt is crap.
If you read again my post I've actually stated SDS is a great system, its biggest problem is the lack of laptop support. Like you said SDS is your first system until you tune with a laptop and another system wether it be megasquirt, haltech, AEM, etc etc. than you cant comprehend how better it is to tune via a laptop. Like I mentioned before megasquirt has a little programmer as well called Megaview, does everything the SDS programmer does to but I myself even know not to use that to tune, its a awesome gadget when you dont require to use a laptop to do little modifications.float_6969 wrote:I have yet to understand why you INSIST upon speaking so poorly about the SDS system. You treat it as if it isn't even a real standalone system. It's as if because it doesn't require a laptop, it's sub-par.
I dont think I'm all knowing trust me I'm far from that, I just began my road when it comes to automobiles. As you can see it bothers you that I think megasquirt is better than SDS, well it bothers me that this forum makes it out to be the greatest thing since Sliced Bread.float_6969 wrote:Please, do not come onto this forum and speak as if you are the all knowing god of standalone engine management. To each his own, and if you're happy with what you've got, then I'M happy with what you've got. But don't downplay someone elses systme because you've decided yours is better. Even a SAFC has it's place...
Its all good I bought my car without working Power Steering, I removed it before I did the swap and since I wasn't gonna use power steering with the CA the power steering section was perfect for the trigger and sensor. But their several ways to mount, shoot you have so many choices of ignition. I just picked what was clean, easy, and proven.float_6969 wrote:PS-I have power steering....
Microtech is a good system, know several people who love them. No experience other than friends testimonies.iliketocrash wrote:so uhh does anyone have much to say about microtech? i'm just curious. i know DOHCtor Boost said he's using it but unfortunately that's the only thing he had to say about it.
Thank you. took the words out of my mouth.float_6969 wrote:This is an outright lie. SDS has been around for 13 years. They released their first system to the public, the EM-1A, in the early 1990's. I would like to see the source of your information that SDS is based off of the Megasquirt system.
Megasquirt came out in 2001. Before that, Bruce Bowling and Al Grippo were working on the EFI332 project. That project started in 1995, 4 year after the first SDS came out. The EFI332 was hard core - it used a Motorola 32bit processor and was just about impossible for most people to use.MegasquirtCA wrote:Megasquirt has been out since the late 80's. Their are several parts of their website where it states SDS and megasquirt have helpedd each other out, and since SDS is similar to megasquirt you decide. Shoot even some of the parts cross reference to each system.
As I said before, I'd like to see PROOF. Unless SDS is lying about it, and I called them and asked, they said they don't have any association with Megasquirt. I SUPPOSE it's possible that the creators of SDS and Megasquirt may have worked together at some point, but to say that SDS is based off of Megasquirt as we know it today is ludicrous.MegasquirtCA wrote:Megasquirt has been out since the late 80's. Their are several parts of their website where it states SDS and megasquirt have helpedd each other out, and since SDS is similar to megasquirt you decide. Shoot even some of the parts cross reference to each system.
I did buy mine used, but I still replaced all the sensors (except for the hall sensor) for very little money. (less than $100 IIRC)MegasquirtCA wrote:Nope I compared them equally, if I remember correctly you bought your kit used. I bought mine new. As for the sensors sorry float their all new, the stuff I got from the junkyard were for mock up purposes, and start up once that was done everything was replaced with new parts. Even with everything new it still came to less than $500.
Not everyone who's is tuning a CA is in school anymore my friend.MegasquirtCA wrote:You know theirs is more than 1 thing you can do with a laptop, you can do school work like taking notes, and running tuning programs too.
I will agree that it could be easier to tune if I could view all 3 gauge screen simultaneously. But that doesn't mean you can't tune with it either. As I (and others) have proven, it works just fine.MegasquirtCA wrote:I like the thought that I dont have to scroll or look at a small screen for information. With a laptop I can see all the information in Digits, Gauges at the same time and I'm able to do things much quicker and more accurate.
Wait, you confused me there. So you're saying that you're NOT saying that SDS isn't a proven system, but that since it's been tried on 5 CA motors, that means it's not proven, only that it works? I'll bet you WAY more people use a SAFC than SDS or Megasquirt, but does that make it a proven solution? And I don't think Dee has put down Megasquirt, or any other system for that matter, he's merely posted up personal EXPERIENCES with various other systems. And, if you read SDS's website, it can be used on any fuel injected, even cylindered motor (Though maybe not to 16 cylinders, but that's not applicable in this medium) . Regardless, I'm not saying that SDS or Megasquirt is or isn't proven, only that your point in this last paragraph is weak.MegasquirtCA wrote:I'm glad you take things the wrong way, gives me a chance to explain it to you. Did I say SDS isnt proven NOPE never. All I said was Dee thinks SDS is proven on the CA when theirs what 5 people running SDS on CA's, to me that proved nothing just that SDS works thats all. Dee thinks megasquirt isnt proven because no one on this forum uses it, well I'm happy to inform you that their are a lot more of CA's running megasquirt than SDS. Unfortunatly they dont come on Nico as some of them are in Europe, South America, Canada and Nico wont do them any good since its not in their proper language. Their are lots of people running megasquirt on race cars, offroad trucks, airplanes, go karts, motorcycles, dirt bikes, pretty much any internal combustion motor, I believe also diesels, Megasquirt even has the capability to run 16 cylinders.
Brainwashing? Come on now...MegasquirtCA wrote:Did someone come out and say its the baddest system out their nope. But you do have Dee going around brainwashing everyone making everyone think that SDS is only gonna work great with the CA . I'm glad it was simple for you SDS better be simple if its got "Simple" in its name.
Yea, I saw your videos HeheheMegasquirtCA wrote:Unfortunatly I wont be able to provide figures as my turbo took a **** and the car isnt drivable yet, I have other things to take care of such as the interior.
AS for brainwashing wether its on purpose or just speaking yes you have. I speak to a lot of our CA members and we all discuss about ideas and their projects and when I ask them about engine managment they go SDS, of course I go why and they say because of Dee's post.boost_boy wrote: First of all, I said Megasquirt hasn't been proven around the CA community because I only tend to NICO, not SXOC or any others and up until recent, it was all talk and no action. And as for you MegasquirtCA or Pumaking or whatever you call yourself, saying I'm brainwashing someone, tells me you must think about me a lot to be able to make such an observation. Brainwashing? Why would I do something like that and what do I gain? I guess I brainwashed float into buying an SDS system, huh! Or brainwashed all the members to go out and buy CA18DET engine sets, huh!
Glad you like my write up, everyone else did too I didnt have to down play it, its been down played numerous times in the past.boost_boy wrote: I though the write-up was pretty useful to those who may be interested in taking the megasquirt route. BUt you had to go and try and down-play a computer system that not only sells extremely well, but is extremely competitive to boot.
But since those aussie guys dont post in Nico their systems arent proven right.boost_boy wrote:We have one member that use haltec, we have several members that use SDS, we have several members who have tried to burn their own chips, and I'm pretty sure there are other members who other systems that they use, but don't post enough to talk about them; especially our Aussie mates.
boost_boy wrote:You started this megasquirt -vs- SDS garbage and your car isn't even functioning enough to convince me that it is what you say it is. I never heard of megasquirt until you guys mentioned it on this forum a while back, so I assume since you started this debate, that your car is going to bad@$$. Hurry-up because I sure as hell can't wait to see how you guys tune this thing.
Shows a lot on your character, the fact that my car caught on fire was a freak accident that I had no control of. Part of it was due to a failed compression fitting, and a hacked up lower engine harness that was caused by the previous owner, and part was my fault for not throughly checking the harness, I guess thats the difference between you and me, the fact I know when somethings my fault instead of blaming something or someone else.boost_boy wrote:In the meantime, my customer and our member "Overboosted180"s car is up and running with an SDS system with an MSD DIS-2 system factored in and it idles perfectly with 1000cc injectors and high performance cams. As a matter of fact, his didn't catch on fire, so I will be able to deliver the car for cash tomorrow .
It matters a few things, like injector size, cams, etc. If you have a "sniffer" only test (good luck with SMOG), you can dial in the a/f to Stoichiometric ratio and have good cat, you will pass. I have passed without a cat on 750cc injectors.tyrannix wrote:but does running either batch or semi sequential *really* have an effect on emissions at idle? (like for people who actually have an inspection, or worse SMOG to deal with)
More goes into it then that.tyrannix wrote:from everything im reading, both SDS and megasquirt sites would have me believe that batch is actually better than sequential at high revs because it allows more fuel to be in the mixture, so you can get more power from the same size injectors
Yes, 2 injectors fire at the same time (different cylinders). It would fire 1&4 at TDC, then 2&3 at TDC (BTDC, but you get the point). So it fires injectors every 180* of crank angle.tyrannix wrote:and that semi-sequential injection with 2 banks, on a CA 1-3-4-2, it would inject on 1 and 4 @TDC and 3 and 2 @ BDC ? so there would be 2 injector pulses per cylinder for every time the intake valves open?
Yes. The only reason you would want a street and a track map is if you are running different octane with either map. If you are just running pump gas (91/93), you will only need a "street" map.tyrannix wrote:edit> about both systems, can you save/load complete maps and settings so you can have your inspection map, then your street map, and a track map if you want to
Why does it matter if it works on a CA? If it works on a single plane crank, 4 stroke, 4-cylinder engine, it will work on a CA.boost_boy wrote: First of all, I said Megasquirt hasn't been proven around the CA community because I only tend to NICO, not SXOC or any others and up until recent, it was all talk and no action.
Cheap shots? Coming from a man that built the manifold on that car. Why would you pair 1&2 and 3&4 cylinders (looks like from the pics, better pics if I am wrong). That thing is going to flow like crap. Open a physics book.boost_boy wrote: In the meantime, my customer and our member "Overboosted180"s car is up and running with an SDS system with an MSD DIS-2 system factored in and it idles perfectly with 1000cc injectors and high performance cams. As a matter of fact, his didn't catch on fire, so I will be able to deliver the car for cash tomorrow
No. Most cars, especially from the early 90s/late 80s ran batch OEM. Its much, much better than TBItyrannix wrote:but does running either batch or semi sequential *really* have an effect on emissions at idle? (like for people who actually have an inspection, or worse SMOG to deal with)
tyrannix wrote:ok, you have a haltec, which model?
E6K, i had bought this before they came out with the E6X and E11
you kept the cas and ignitor, is that an option, or do you have to (could you run another form of crank sensing if you wanted to? like the hall sensor type deal)
You can run all different types of pickups including a regualar Hall effect. I wanted to keep it simple so i ran the stock CAS
im assuming that you wired your own harness, what kind of sensors are you running? (like egt vs o2, or both? , knock sensor?)
I started with the Haltech flying lead harness. I had to seperate the wiper control harness from the engine harness. Then just wired up all sensors and injectors and ignitor and stuff. For sensors i am running IAT(intake air temp),water temp,3 bar map, CAS.
is it possible to have a hand controller on the haltec, or is it straight PC interface for modifying?
Haltech sells a fuel/ignition timing trip unit. It is just a box with a knob that will fine trim either maps at the current "bar".
do you have to purchase the software, and with that software can you save and/or load maps/settings under different profiles if you wanted to?
You can DL the softare for free off of their website but the unit comes with the most up to date version. You can save as many maps as you want on the laptop but you have to hook up the laptop to switch them, the new E6X has internal memory you can store 2 maps and just flip a switch you wire up to change them
can you wire additional things to be activated (like electric fans, or the secondary butterflies... or 'windows up at 120 mph' can you do it?)
Yes Fan controls, secondary runners, boost control, turbo timer, antilag, NOS retard, no lift shift. Not so sure about the windows up ;-)
and does it have a programming language (megasquirt uses its own assembly language, which looks decently powerful after i read all the possible variables and operators)
No editing the programming here unless your real good, it is not open source
and does it do the semi-batch injecting and/or control a second set of injectors (example, injecting an anti-detonation compound on a secondary set of injectors at x RMP or Y knock value instead of retarding the timing)
dont remember all the possibilities, but right now i am only running batch fire injection with sequential ignition dues do output limitations, but you can run full sequential everything if you use a different ignitor.
im trying to read all the info from all the major standalone sites, but thats basically the info i look for on them
Check the sites carfully they all will tell you all the capabilities of each[b/]CJ
tyrannix wrote:i finally found it on the SDS site, says its batch also
but does running either batch or semi sequential *really* have an effect on emissions at idle? (like for people who actually have an inspection, or worse SMOG to deal with)
from everything im reading, both SDS and megasquirt sites would have me believe that batch is actually better than sequential at high revs because it allows more fuel to be in the mixture, so you can get more power from the same size injectors
from what I gathered on the msefi forums sequential injection is more beneficial in the lower rpm range, when you get in the higher rpms the injectors are staying open much longer to the point where they dont close.
BTW, megasquirt runs on straight assembly language, not C (from the site)its more difficult to program, but ultimatly you have more/better control
being a computer geek by trade, im planning on having a 12 volt 'desktop' micro ATX computer inside my car with a touchscreen, so having PC compatibility is something im looking for
If you did that I'm pretty sure you'd have a kickass setup on any laptop enabled setup.
edit> about both systems, can you save/load complete maps and settings so you can have your inspection map, then your street map, and a track map if you want to ... or am i thinking too much into it... im a programmer, only been a car guy for about a year and a half now. plastigauge scared me at first, when i had to assemble my engine myself im trying to get all the info i can to make an informed purchase, and hope that my questions will help answer other people's who may not feel comfortable asking.
Of course you can setup several maps, I'm pretty sure you can also get into it where you can even have it change at a certain RPM such as Alpha N if you so wish to. There are lots of possibilities with megasquirt.