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EVERYONE, change your clutch fluid!!!!!!!

Postby joe603 » Thu Jun 21, 2007 9:55 am



After reading about how the clutch fluid can affect the clutch engagement, I decided to change mine. The idea is that during heavy use, the fluid will boil and water will be present, eventually making the color a nasty brown.



To change it, obtain the following:
- syringe (turkey injector works perfectly) with clear tubing that will fit.
- DOT 4 synthetic brake fluid
- Lint-free towels
- plastic container to store nasty fluid

1. Put some rags around the clutch reservoir (this stuff can remove paint, so be careful!), and observe the color of the fluid. If it's clear you're good...if not then proceed!

2. Draw out the nasty fluid until you see the bottom of the reservoir. Put it into the plastic container, and clean the reservoir and cap with the lint-free towels. Again, be careful because this is the messy part.

3. Add the new, clear fluid and put the cap back on..stay within the max level

4. Pump the clutch about 30 times, and repeat the process. It took 6 times before my fluid looked like this.



After your done, take her for a ride. You should notice an immediate difference in the feel of the clutch. In combination with the clutch adjustment, the car should feel like a totally different car! Enjoy!

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Re: EVERYONE, change your clutch fluid!!!!!!! (joe603)

Postby G_whizz » Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:59 am

looks like someone made a pootsy in your resevoir

Nice work Joe...get this in the "How To" section

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Postby C-Kwik » Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:13 pm

I'd look for another source of contamination. I haven't looked specifically at the G's slave cylinder, but it should be well isolated from excess heat. Slave cylinders are generally attached to the bellhousing and actuate the Clutch through a clutch arm and a TO bearing along with it's carrier. To further the heat transfer from the slave cyulinder, the pressure plate's contact surface is isolated from the TO bearing and it's carrier by the splines. To heat the slave cylinder up to such a temperature, the tranny would likely have to heat up to a temperature that it shouldn't ever see. You may want to look for a source outside of the clutch system. There may be a better solution if the problem stems from a different cause than you seem to think...
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Postby joe603 » Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:44 am

If there is another source of contamination, its a common problem. I've seen other G35s with similar looking clutch reservoirs. I think that a change to DOT4 instead of DOT3 will help due to the higher heat absorption. That burning clutch smell has to come from somewhere when the pedal sticks to the floor under hard acceleration...
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Re: (joe603)

Postby C-Kwik » Fri Jun 22, 2007 8:46 am

Dot 4 fluid doesn't absorb more heat. The boiling temperature is just higher which keeps the clutch/brake working correctly under high heat (no air in the lines).

Thinking about it some more though, Brake fluid tends to change color as it ages. IIRC, some of it due to absorbing water. I've never had brake fluid get that bad though as I tend to change fluid often.

As far as heat being the source in general, think aboout your brakes. they see a lot more heat then a slave cylinder typically will and it likely isn't that dark...
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Postby joe603 » Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:42 am

There was a topic about this in the Corvette forums...new Z06's have this issue as well. The picture I posted wasn't from my car, but the color of my res. was just as bad. After the change, the clutch is like new.

I'll keep you guys posted. I have to re-check it this weekend, we'll see if the color is back.
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Re: (joe603)

Postby Q45tech » Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:42 pm

The higher the DOT grade and dry boiling point the more hygroscopic the fluid is and the shorter the life interval until it becomes wet.

Same problem when used in brakes........................oem uses DOT 3 to prolong the interval.
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Postby joe603 » Sun Jun 24, 2007 12:35 pm

Not sure I understood your post Q...will the DOT 4 require more frequent fluid changes? Is that what you meant to say?

Can the same thing be done with the brake fluid? What are the rules to consider when using DOT 3 or DOT 4?
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Re: (joe603)

Postby ATLG356MT » Mon Jun 25, 2007 9:07 am

This is good info. I have about 17K on the odometer and have the same color fluid as well. I will be doing this fluid change this weekend. Thanks, -Parker
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Postby joe603 » Tue Jun 26, 2007 5:32 am

Cool, let us know the results and how easy it was.
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Re: (joe603)

Postby maxnix » Tue Jun 26, 2007 5:40 am

joe603 wrote:Not sure I understood your post Q...will the DOT 4 require more frequent fluid changes? Is that what you meant to say?
That is exactly what he did say.
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Postby ATLG356MT » Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:00 am

I went ahead and swapped out the clutch fluid last night. I bought a suctioning pump and a bottle of the Valvoline Dot 4. I cost me just over $10.00 and took me about 15 minutes to cycle the fluid several times. I wiped out the inside of the resavoir as well. I experianced a noticable improvement in the operation of the clutch and got some peace of mind. Well worth the effort IMO.
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Postby verbal assassin » Fri Jun 29, 2007 8:03 pm

is there any way to drain out the entire fluid? using a syphon only rids the fluid from the resevior...

on my integra, all i have to do is loosen a bolt from the slave cylinder and let it all drain out. then fill it back on from the top.

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Re: (ATLG356MT)

Postby jlo0109 » Sat Jun 30, 2007 7:37 am

where can I get suctioning pump and a bottle of the Valvoline Dot 4???
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Postby joe603 » Mon Jul 02, 2007 6:00 am

The reservoir method is easier because you don't have to bleed the system. Just a few repetitions of replenishing the reservoir, and the fluid will be completely changed.

jlo0109, I used a turkey injector and small rubber hose (Home depot). Get the DOT 4 from Autozone or any auto shop really. The brand doesn't matter, as long as it's synthetic.
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Postby jlo0109 » Mon Jul 02, 2007 8:34 am

what do you use the rubber hose for?
oh yeah when you said cap with the lint-free towels.. do you mean wipe the reservoir with the towels :]? sorry for the dumb question.. I just wanna make sure I get the meaning correctly


Modified by jlo0109 at 12:22 PM 7/2/2007
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Postby joe603 » Mon Jul 02, 2007 8:46 am

Man...you set yourself up...lol
jlo0109 wrote:what do you use the rubber hose for?
It goes on the end of the syringe to make the fluid sucking easier and not as messy. The lint-free towels are for cleaning out the empty reservoir of the brown gunk.
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Postby jlo0109 » Mon Jul 02, 2007 9:23 am

I see.. alright I am going to change it today. One last thing.. where is this located
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Postby joe603 » Mon Jul 02, 2007 9:41 am

It's on the drivers side, near the brake master cylinder/reservoir. Check out the pics in the first post. You're fluid will probably be the same color.
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Re: EVERYONE, change your clutch fluid!!!!!!! (joe603)

Postby WECHSLERL » Sat Jul 07, 2007 7:46 am

I READ ALL THE ARTICLES ABOUT THE CLUTCH FLUID CHANGE.
MAIN QUESTION IS: WHAT WAS THE PROBLEM WITH THE CLUTCH (IF ANY) BEFORE THE FLUID CHANGE AND WHAT BROUGHT YOU TO CHANGE IT TO BEGIN WITH.
WAS ANY SHIFTING A PROBLEM?

LW
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Re: EVERYONE, change your clutch fluid!!!!!!! (WECHSLERL)

Postby smockers83 » Sat Jul 07, 2007 8:13 am

Please stop using the Caps Lock key in your posts, its distracting and hard to read. Read the thread a little closer, too, because the answers to your questions are right here in the thread....... (1st and 4th posts)
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Re: EVERYONE, change your clutch fluid!!!!!!! (smockers83)

Postby zozoka1212 » Sat Jul 07, 2007 8:56 am

StOp UsInG A wHaT? Sorry I had to do that. Seriously you right. It is harder to read when all the letters are capital.

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Re: (joe603)

Postby IlsG35 » Sat Jul 07, 2007 12:43 pm

hey joe when u were removing the old dot 3 fluid did u mix it with the dot 4? and i think i read somewhere that dot for takes more heat and does not absorbe water due to it being silicone or something like that. im not sure ill ask the master tech at my job on monday and ill post back.

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Postby joe603 » Tue Sep 25, 2007 5:17 am

The fluid will mix...but only a minimal amount. If you keep refiling the res with new DOT4, eventually it will all be DOT4. Also, I have not had to replenish the fluid more often, compared to DOT3 OEM fluid...

Wechslerl, this will fix the clutch pedal sticking to the floor after hard acceleration.
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Postby g35cuhlean » Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:41 am

Bump for the good info from joe, i am going to change mine out this weekend.
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Postby adren77 » Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:47 am

If I never experienced my clutch pedal getting stuck to the floor, should I still change it?

Also, after how many miles should this be done? I imagine it has something to do with the way you drive
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Postby joe603 » Wed Sep 26, 2007 8:30 am

Try doing a burnout...if it sticks to the floor, change the fluid. It won't hurt anything to change regardless...
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Postby wjn38 » Thu Sep 27, 2007 3:23 pm

i was reading this topic so i decided to check my clutch fluid and it looks like crappy brown color. i was reading all the posts and i was wondering if brake fluid and clutch fluid was the same because you posted that i should buy dot 4 brake fluid?? im confusid maybe this is a stupid question?
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Re: EVERYONE, change your clutch fluid!!!!!!! (joe603)

Postby vbx2 » Thu Sep 27, 2007 7:09 pm

Don't the G have a bleeder bolt on the slave cylinder? Because that has to me the most "ghetto" way of changing your clutch fluid. haha. WTF?

Sure it somewhat removes the dirty fluid in the resevior but it is the wrong way of doing it.

Imagine changing oil the same way. haha.

The right way would be to "loosen" the bleeder bolt on the slave cylinder to let is drip.

Then, at the same time, you slowly add Clean fluid in the resevior. You keep this up till the fluid dripping out of the slave cylnider is CLEAN.

Once you see clean fluid dripping out the slave cylinder, you tighten the bolt and your done.. The system is Completly flushed.

The "syphon" method is a waste of time, unless there is no other way you can do it..
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Postby joe603 » Fri Sep 28, 2007 3:29 am

I'm not aware of a bleeder bolt on the clutch fluid reservoir. (pics please)...and I don't see how it would make the job any easier or faster? We're only talking about ounces of fluid, not quarts! (kind of overkill in your analogy)

Quite simply, the siphon method works well! A bleeder bolt would only replenish the reservoir, not all the fluid. You would still need to pump the clutch to circulate the dirty fluid. With the bleeder method, you would have to either have 2 people (one to constantly fill the reservoir and the other to pump the clutch) or tighten the bolt, pump the clutch, drain the fluid (waiting longer for the drip), tighten the bolt, refill the reservoir, pump....repeat X5. Hardly saving time...in fact it would take longer.

The siphon method is fast and clean.

The term "ghetto" doesn't apply if certified techs do it the same way to save time...but what do I know, this is the Internet, where everyone is an expert.
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Re: (wjn38)

Postby joe603 » Fri Sep 28, 2007 3:40 am

wjn38 wrote:i was reading this topic so i decided to check my clutch fluid and it looks like crappy brown color. i was reading all the posts and i was wondering if brake fluid and clutch fluid was the same because you posted that i should buy dot 4 brake fluid?? im confusid maybe this is a stupid question?
Not at all!! Clutch fluid is the same as brake or hydraulic fluid. DOT 4 just increases the boiling point to eliminate spent fluid. DOT 5 is is silicone based and you cannot mix 3/4/5.1 with 5. The problem with DOT 5 is that it will not absorb water (unlike 3/4/5.1). The water will find the lowest point in the line and cause corrosion. If you do mix 3/4/5.1 with 5, it causes a chemical reaction and could disrupt the operation of you system. DOT 5.1 is the same as 3/4, but much more expensive!

Type / Dry boiling point / Wet boiling point
DOT 3 / 205°C (401°F) / 140°C (284°F)
DOT 4 / 230°C (446°F) / 155°C (311°F)
DOT 5 / 260°C (500°F) / 180°C (356°F)
DOT 5.1 / 270°C (518°F) / 191°C (375°F)
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Postby WESIDE » Fri Sep 28, 2007 2:45 pm

Question, Which grade should we use to replace? I am guessing 4?
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Postby SpeedRacer1 » Fri Sep 28, 2007 5:08 pm

The FSM says you only need 3 for your brakes. The brake fluid in the brake system gets MUCH hotter than the brake fluid in the clutch piping, so I am quite sure 3 would be just fine for the clutch.

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Postby joe603 » Sat Sep 29, 2007 10:30 am

SpeedRacer1 wrote:The FSM says you only need 3 for your brakes. The brake fluid in the brake system gets MUCH hotter than the brake fluid in the clutch piping, so I am quite sure 3 would be just fine for the clutch.

So you would think. But when you shift at high RPM, the fluid gets just as hot as the brake fluid. The result is the pedal not coming up from the floor after the fluid is boiled. Since I've upgraded to a synthetic DOT4 fluid, my clutch pedal has not stuck to the floor AT ALL!

I don't claim to be an engineer and cannot explain the ins and outs of fluid dynamics...but I do know that this method is used on the Corvette Z06, which had the same problem after a series of hard launches. Before I did this to my car, I did a bit of research...as anyone should.

I would guess that DOT3 fluid for brakes is not optimal either, but you don't notice the effects...stopping distance might increase 5-10 feet in panic stops, but you wouldn't notice that in every day driving. When I change my brake fluid, I will upgrade to at least DOT 4. I need to do more research on DOT5.1 first.
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Postby SpeedRacer1 » Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:57 am

joe603 wrote:
So you would think. But when you shift at high RPM, the fluid gets just as hot as the brake fluid.

Uh no

joe603 wrote:I would guess that DOT3 fluid for brakes is not optimal either, but you don't notice the effects...stopping distance might increase 5-10 feet in panic stops, but you wouldn't notice that in every day driving.
Uh no
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Postby joe603 » Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:14 am

care to elaborate? ....maybe say more than two words??
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Postby USAF_G35_Guy » Mon Oct 01, 2007 3:39 pm

what is the price difference between DOT4 and 5.1?

I'm one of those guys that buys the namebrand/top of the line stuff if it's worth while. Kinda like Synthetic over Dino.

And yes....I just checked my slave cylinder, and grrr....I have have the same mucky brown diarrhea yumminess in mine. So yup...I'll be flushing it tomorrow or this weekend.

Great Thread BTW


and a little info.....

DOT 5.1
Should not be confused with DOT 5, a silicone based fluid.

DOT 5.1 is one of several designations of brake fluid denoting a particular mixture of chemicals imparting specified ranges of boiling point.

In the United States, all brake fluids must meet federal standard #116. Under this standard there are three Department of Transportation (DOT) minimal specifications for brake fluid. They are DOT 3, DOT 4, and DOT 5.1.

DOT 5.1, like DOT 3 and DOT 4, is a polyethylene glycol-based fluid (contrasted with DOT 5 which is silicone-based). Fluids such as DOT 5.1 are hygroscopic and will absorb water from the atmosphere. This degrades the fluid's performance by drastically reducing its boiling point. In a passenger car this is not much of an issue, but can be of serious concerns in racecars ( like the G35! or motorcycles.

As of 2006, most cars produced in the U.S. use DOT 3 brake fluid.

Boiling points

Minimal boiling points for these specifications are as follows:
Boiling Point Ranges Dry Boiling Point Wet Boiling Point
DOT 3 205°C (401°F) 140°C (284°F)
DOT 4 230°C (446°F) 155°C (311°F)
DOT 5 260°C (500°F) 180°C (356°F) <-------the don't mix one, cause silicone instead of polyethylene glycol- based like the others
DOT 5.1 270°C (518°F) 191°C (375°F)


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Postby joe603 » Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:51 am

Here's a Motul bottle...I'm still trying to find one local so I don't have to pay 50% of the cost on shipping!

http://www.buybrakes.com/store/MOTUL-8070HCM
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Postby Tampa G35 Sedan 6MT » Tue Oct 02, 2007 8:46 am

I did it.. Took me about 5 times for the fluid to be clean... it had i think 36k miles on the orignal... Thanks for the tip

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Re: (joe603)

Postby SpeedRacer1 » Wed Oct 03, 2007 2:07 am

joe603 wrote:care to elaborate? ....maybe say more than two words??
I am not sure how much you actually know about the mechanics of cars, but the statement that clutch fluid gets as hot as brake fluid makes no sense.

It doesnt. Brake fluid gets hot because the fluid runs into the brake calipers. When a vehicle is braking the energy of the vehicle is being converted to thermal energy at the contact point of the brake pads and rotors. In other words, heat transfer is what stops a car. The more you brake, or harder you try to stop the hotter the brake componants get.

The clutch fluid system works nothing like the brake system. The clutch componants and flywheel are somewhat hot when somebody rides the clutch and causes undo friction. Also those componants are slightly warm already because they are bolted to the crank. However the fluid never touches the clutch or flywheel. The closest the fluid gets to the clutch is the outside of the bellhousing, and on a RWD car the inside of the bellhousing is hollow. The transmission will get warms because it is always moving, but it doesnt touch the slave cylinder or the fluid on a G35.

The path of heat transfer from the clutch to the fluid is this: Pressure plate, release bearing, release bearing sleave, clutch fork/lever, push rod in slave cylinder, then to the fluid. So the heat has to travel through a bearing, a thin piece of metal (fork), and an 1/8th inch push rod before it reaches any fluid. Not to mention the slave cylinder is located outside the transmission so it is cooled by the air. How does this manage to equal near boiling brake fluid? Granted I will give you that the clutch fluid piping does run through the engine bay, but that means it will only soak some of the heat given off by the engine, and while it is hot under the hood, its not that hot.

Therefore shifting regardless of RPM, the fluid shouldnt be any hotter or cooler except for the heat the engine is making under the hood at those temps. I cannot explain your pedal problems, but I have been around plenty of cars that do not have the problem you reported.

Onto fluids. The bottom line here is that Nissan/Infiniti says that DOT3 is fine. Its not like 4 is somehow greatly superior to 4, 4 just has a higher boiling point. Higher boiling points are great and all, but 99% of drivers never heat up their brakes enough on the street to warrant the temps the 4 can provide for.

Fluid is fluid, it cannot help stop a car in a shorter distance because of its higher boiling properties, unless you are comparing stopping when fluid is cold vs stopping with overheated fluid. You are trying to stop a vehicle of a given weight. The BEST way to make a car stop in shorter distances is to drop its weight. Other factors such as upgraded brakes, better tires, properly inflated tires, and ambiant condition will help stop in shorter distances. The higher boiling temps help when you are looking for performance on the track because the fluid will hold its properties better, longer. I am not sure how it would help in panic stops, unless you are doing multiple panic stops in a row, thus heating up the brakes.

DOT 5 and 5.1 are options, but there are other things to take into consideration. Water and contaminants cause lower boiling temps. Since DOT3 and 4 are at least a small percent water they are capable of absorbing it a little better than 5 which just isolates the fluid. This causes corrosion issues inside the lines. DOT5 can also break down greases and cause other problems in the system, these become contaminants and obviously lower boiling temps. One other thing to consider is that once you add silicone based 5, you will never fully remove it from your system if you switch back to 3 or 4.

Now just for reference I use ATE Super Blue Racing Fluid (DOT4), in my 240SX. Its blue which makes proper bleeding of the system easy. Bleed the fluid, you know you've bled the system once the fluid goes from yellowisg orange to blue.

*I did not proofread this after typing...
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