engine damage. advice and suggestions needed please.

[suby01]

was cruising on the highway at about 50-60.
then when im about to get off the exit the slip and vdc light come on as i slow down all lights go on. soon as i pulled over and came to a complete stop, car stalled.

tried starting it, all it did was crank really fast but would not start.
checked all the fluids all mechanical everything is fine.

read ecu codes and came up with

exhaust valve control solenoid circuit control bank 1+2
cmp
camshaft position sensor
a circuit bank 2

so i had infiniti roadside come get it. that was actually the best infiniti experience ive ever had with anything from infiniti. called them took my info gave location tow truck came in 10 mins everything was covered..so far.

so just went to the dealer, and the service manager was the only one available
can i help u, i told him who i was.
and hes like what happened so i told him.
he said something in the engine broke, either the camshaft or timing.
so he just had me sign the paperwork and on it i saw had written down has intake and exhaust and grounding wires. once they lift the car they will find the cats and the pulley.
and it said that camshaft or timing will not spin.


i had the camshaft position sensors replaced 4 or 5 times already. they kept going bad. or i kept breaking it but i dont know how.

so he said they are just waiting on the techs to get back to them to see what to do.

i know the first thing they come up with is HI ITS NOT WARRANTIED.
from what i know the pulley cranks the serpentine belt so nothing that i did to the car would affect the timing belt.

******************then


i got a call from the dealer. and they said that the engine was broken, needs to be replaced, and the good news is that i am getting a new engine. will be shipped from japan should be here in a week and i should have my car back in a couple of weeks. so i said ok.


**********a week later the fact
just called me back and said they took the engine out and big news the car will now not be covered under warranty because of my after market parts. and the cause was the pulley that caused the crankshaft to break.

it will cost 14k to replace. they will not perform any other type of work on the car until i sign the authorization.

i know im sol for a car. but i will go down there tomorrow first thing in the morning and see their paper work and show it to my lawyer for the warranty paperwork and also what the cause of the damage is. i will have my lawyer review it. very little chance that anything can be done. but thats where im at right now.
i was super lenient with them for the lemon law for my car for the several times that they changed out the sensors and all the other things that were breaking on the car and that was way before i had any aftermarket parts on the car. but now im just looking for a way to solve this obviously.

anyone have any suggestions for anything at all would be super

appreciated. thanks.

[telcoman]

was cruising on the highway at about 50-60.
then when im about to get off the exit the slip and vdc light come on as i slow down all lights go on. soon as i pulled over and came to a complete stop, car stalled.

tried starting it, all it did was crank really fast but would not start.
checked all the fluids all mechanical everything is fine.

read ecu codes and came up with

exhaust valve control solenoid circuit control bank 1+2
cmp
camshaft position sensor
a circuit bank 2

so i had infiniti roadside come get it. that was actually the best infiniti experience ive ever had with anything from infiniti. called them took my info gave location tow truck came in 10 mins everything was covered..so far.

so just went to the dealer, and the service manager was the only one available
can i help u, i told him who i was.
and hes like what happened so i told him.
he said something in the engine broke, either the camshaft or timing.
so he just had me sign the paperwork and on it i saw had written down has intake and exhaust and grounding wires. once they lift the car they will find the cats and the pulley.
and it said that camshaft or timing will not spin.


i had the camshaft position sensors replaced 4 or 5 times already. they kept going bad. or i kept breaking it but i dont know how.

so he said they are just waiting on the techs to get back to them to see what to do.

i know the first thing they come up with is HI ITS NOT WARRANTIED.
from what i know the pulley cranks the serpentine belt so nothing that i did to the car would affect the timing belt.

******************then


i got a call from the dealer. and they said that the engine was broken, needs to be replaced, and the good news is that i am getting a new engine. will be shipped from japan should be here in a week and i should have my car back in a couple of weeks. so i said ok.


**********a week later the fact
just called me back and said they took the engine out and big news the car will now not be covered under warranty because of my after market parts. and the cause was the pulley that caused the crankshaft to break.

it will cost 14k to replace. they will not perform any other type of work on the car until i sign the authorization.

i know im sol for a car. but i will go down there tomorrow first thing in the morning and see their paper work and show it to my lawyer for the warranty paperwork and also what the cause of the damage is. i will have my lawyer review it. very little chance that anything can be done. but thats where im at right now.
i was super lenient with them for the lemon law for my car for the several times that they changed out the sensors and all the other things that were breaking on the car and that was way before i had any aftermarket parts on the car. but now im just looking for a way to solve this obviously.

anyone have any suggestions for anything at all would be super

appreciated. thanks.

Trade it in on a new one.

I got a good deal from VW when the engine on my 66 Beedle blew.
I traded it in for a brand new 69 Beedle.

But that was a long time ago.

The brand new one in 69 was $1950.00. The gave me $500 for the trade in with the blown engine

Good luck

Telcoman

[tollboothwilley]

I think it was the lack of a harmonic damper + higher rev limit that caused your problem. Honestly, if the pulley caused the problem there's not much you can do about it.

Might be worth having another mechanic take a look at it.

You can find running engines to replace if need be...or you can rebuild...

[zozoka1212]

Suby,

Did you return the tune to stock?

If they find out that too you'll be screwed for sure. Higher rev time adv. etc. They will blame it on it for sure.

To talk to a lawyer is the best you can do right now. Don't think anybody else can help you. Hope everything turns out good for you. Keep us posted.

[C-Kwik]

Call and find out if they even assessed the actual failure within the motor. If they have not, then how can they confirm the pulley was the cause of damage? Magnussen-Moss Act indicates that the aftermarket part must be the cause of the failure in order for the warranty to be denied. Of course, being that the pulley is attached to a part that is the center of all load and motion in the motor, it leaves little room for it not to be attributed to it, but I'd at least see if they made a good faith effort to actually confirm it. I would ask for all their responses to be confirmed in writing. Including a denial of warranty service with a clear reason. While it may not be fruitful in the end, it will help should you decide to file suit, and it might help keep them honest.

[G_whizz]

Call and find out if they even assessed the actual failure within the motor. If they have not, then how can they confirm the pulley was the cause of damage? Magnussen-Moss Act indicates that the aftermarket part must be the cause of the failure in order for the warranty to be denied. Of course, being that the pulley is attached to a part that is the center of all load and motion in the motor, it leaves little room for it not to be attributed to it, but I'd at least see if they made a good faith effort to actually confirm it. I would ask for all their responses to be confirmed in writing. Including a denial of warranty service with a clear reason. While it may not be fruitful in the end, it will help should you decide to file suit, and it might help keep them honest.

That all makes PERFECT sense! As always..great advice CK.

Best of luck Suby...keep us in the loop!

[SteveTheTech]

I am more inclined to believe the HFCs coupled with higher than normal revs and fuel mapping that might be signaling a longer injector pulse allowing fuel to accumulate on the nonOE catalyst honeycomb material. This leads to a rapid increase in temperature and possible combustion. Once a critical point is reached within the catalyst the supporting material begins to fail and break up.
During normal engine cycles there is a slight amount of negative charge, used in the VQ instead of an EGR this and the immediate proximity of the cats increases the likelihood of severe engine damage due to catalyst failures.

I have seen this on several occasions and not a single engine was replaced under warranty. Even after litigation.

If you look closely having the HFCs violates the federal emissions warranty, and law. I do not really think Magnussen-Moss Act covers the violation of federal emissions standards.

Underdrive pulleys are not really going to cause the stress needed to break the crank although that is indeed possible. I think crushing some cat material inside the engine is more than sufficient to break a rod, crank or any of the other major engine components. Plus no Infiniti warranty is deemed a "full warranty" by MMA basic definitions.

WHAT IS NOT COVERED
DAMAGE, FAILURES OR CORROSION DUE TO ACCIDENTS,
MISUSE OR ALTERATIONS
This warranty does not cover damage, failures or
corrosion resulting from:
• Accident, theft, fire, driving through water
(including engine water ingestion) or misuse,
which includes, but is not limited to, racing of any
sort whatsoever. (Proper use is outlined in your
OWNER’S MANUAL.)
• Alteration, tampering or improper repair.
• Installation of non-Nissan approved accessories
or components.
• Improper installation of any Nissan approved or
aftermarket accessory or component.
• Glass breakage, unless resulting from defects in
material or workmanship.
• Normal wear and tear, including dings, dents,
chips or scratches.

You can contact your lawyer to review your case, but if it comes to court they almost always win and have people dedicated to that. I know of several cases I have been involved with in some way or another and they tend to get messy and if you have a modified engine and that can be proven as a failure of any of the modified components may be fairly easy to prove as failures in the 07+ G35xs are extremely rare.
However, the Stillen website clearly states that these products are for off-road use only. http://www.stillen.com/product...204DR

[pfarmer]

I am more inclined to believe the HFCs coupled with higher than normal revs and fuel mapping that might be signaling a longer injector pulse

I think there is an assumption that every part is treated like a single enity when it comes to a failure.

My belief is that the manufacturer and rightfully so can point to a single failure being attributed to a combination of modifications and behaviours.

Many here give very detailed information about their modifications, their intentions if there are problems (such as removal prior to going in for warranty work), and how they use the product (racing at the track and racing on the street).

Even their sigs could be used against them if a defendant decided to use it.

'Here is a picture of Betsy my car parked in front of my home. I have this exhaust system, this set of wiring modifications, this intake, I race it weekends at the track, and I race every Hyundai that comes my way daily'.

suby I want to point out that this is not a statement about you, but about what I have observed as being very common in these forums which can bring about problems later on for the poster.

Perry

[SteveTheTech]

At least the guys here tend to have more common sense than the guys from the other board. I really love their level of expectation.

I too agree with your assessment, being property of Nico, an entity that would cooperate with any subpoena for information regarding legal action if so needed. As anyone that has experience can attest to. Nissan knows that people openly admit to things like racing and non-warrantable modifications.

Other manufacturers openly troll website and popular race organizations for warrantied members and deny their claims. Very similar to health insurance companies.

People tend to forget that the warranty is for covering defects in manufacturing and workmanship. The intent is to keep your car functioning as designed for a certain period of time. When you get into removing factory designed components and replacing ones that do not share the same level of initial quality. Although these aftermarket companies have the intention of creating an equivalent replacement part the truth is they do not commit the capitol to the research and have the level of initial design focus on a given component that Nissan commits to every model.

[audtatious]

Well, in general, NICO would not usually be willing to give out information unless forced to.

The whole situation sux and helps make me consider leaving mine completely stock at this point as I use it as a DD.

[SteveTheTech]

I am not sure this is a topic for general discussion, but if it came to getting a subpoena for achieved information from pretty much any jurisdiction Nico would most likely comply. Not looking to be held in contempt is a great motivator for forcing your hand, the justice system doesn't really mess around.

Stock really isn't too bad. Some minor modifications are not bad, but keeping to basic things like the Z tube and popcharger with a muffler are much easier for us as a technician to make a judgment call.

[spacy9]

Suby, I'm sorry to hear this happened. Especially since I have the same year / model as you. I really hope that this works out for you. Please keep us informed.

Stock really isn't too bad. Some minor modifications are not bad, but keeping to basic things like the Z tube and popcharger with a muffler are much easier for us as a technician to make a judgment call.

Steve, I don't want to thread jack, but my dealership said that if I use Stillen parts, and the dealership does the installation, that the warranty stays intact. Is that just something that this particular dealership is stating, or is that the norm for Infiniti?

[mrsmithGrider]

No, Infiniti of Tampa does the same thing. Even if you get a turbo or supercharger, if they install it then its covered.

[pfarmer]

Suby, I'm sorry to hear this happened. Especially since I have the same year / model as you. I really hope that this works out for you. Please keep us informed.

Steve, I don't want to thread jack, but my dealership said that if I use Stillen parts, and the dealership does the installation, that the warranty stays intact. Is that just something that this particular dealership is stating, or is that the norm for Infiniti?

I think since the warranty is from Infiniti that it is not covered, however the dealer may well honor it anyway. This doesn't mean that if your machined died and ends up at another dealer you would be ok.

Perry

[BrandAidDesignG35]

I am sorry to hear of your problems you've been experiencing.

I never bothered with extended warranty because of such reasons... you're not insured at the track anyway.

And I think this is a good excuse to rebuild suby, sorry that this happened, you could also look at trading on another G maybe Good luck bro

[Tampa G35 Sedan 6MT]

Keep us posted.

That is a shame but I would make them prove it and fight till the end!

[Tampa G35 Sedan 6MT]

Hey Just get your car back from that dealer that you have it at and have it towed to your house. Put back all the stock stuff and then call and have them tow it to another dealer....

Thats the way to beat the system

DJ

[pfarmer]

Hey Just get your car back from that dealer that you have it at and have it towed to your house. Put back all the stock stuff and then call and have them tow it to another dealer....

Thats the way to beat the system

DJ

If there is a service report open with Infiniti Corp it may be a good way to end up with some major legal issues when it comes to trying to defraud Infiniti. Most likely they fully documented the state of the car when it came in. Remember first the engine was covered by warranty and then it was denied, apparantly after review. This wouldn't be too much different then if he takes it back, pushes over a clift and then claims someone forced him off the road so he can get his insurance company to pay blue book. I would hate to be even considered an accomplice in such a scheme.

Perry

[biggie]

Haven't read everything in detail, but has anyone involved asked if UR covers damage caused by their product (if it can be proven it was the pulley)?

[Tampa G35 Sedan 6MT]

Perry,

I was only joking

Biggie,

Good point... Back track that to the UR manufacture!

DJ

[fiveliterbeater]

QUOTE=suby01]
anyone have any suggestions for anything at all would be super

appreciated. thanks.
[/QUOTE]

hey are the VQ motors balanced internally or externally? i had an old LT1 camaro and when i put a pulley on, i didnt realize it wasn't balanced. so what had happened is that the crankshaft vibrated itself to death snapping the timing chain and sending the pistons slamming against the vavles.
the problem was that i had purchased the wrong pulley and therefore it was my fault so chevy would not cover the warranty.
it sounds like the pulley you purchased was not correct. was the pulley you installed pretty heavy or was it super light?

[pfarmer]

Haven't read everything in detail, but has anyone involved asked if UR covers damage caused by their product (if it can be proven it was the pulley)?

I doubt it for the same reason that Infiniti will not. Infiniti can claim the engine failed because of a combination of aftermarket parts, tuning, etc. Therefore if that can happen then the manufacturer of the pulley could state the same thing. Not sure about the history of the product by itself, but if it has a good track record (by itself), then.............. It is possible that they may even have a disclaimer to the same effect that some of the Stillen products do - for offroad use only, not for street use, etc.

Perry




Modified by pfarmer at 12:44 AM 6/30/2009

[pfarmer]

Perry,

I was only joking

Biggie,

Good point... Back track that to the UR manufacture!

DJ

And.................

'UNORTHODOX RACING, INC. PARTS, USED IN COMPETITION OF ANY KIND, SANCTIONED OR UNSANCTIONED, ARE SOLD “AS IS” WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY WHATSOEVER. Any modifications to the pulley/pulleys will void any and all warranties and will not be exchanged. Before installation, check new car warranty. Unorthodox Racing, Inc. is not responsible for voiding any original manufacturer warranty. All warranty claims must be returned to Unorthodox Racing or your authorized reseller, you must return the product and sales receipt, at your own expense, accompanied by a letter stating the reason for the claim. Please refer to the paragraph below for the proper return procedures. Any claims for pulleys, cam gears or flywheels must be received no later than one year after the date of purchase. Any claims for clutches must be received no later than 90 days from the date of purchase. If all the above procedures are followed, and the product is found to be defective in either material or workmanship, Unorthodox Racing, Inc. shall either repair or replace the product, at its sole discretion, and at its sole cost. This limited warranty does not cover or apply to any personal injury, labor charges, or any other incidental costs or damages caused by the defective product. '


I think they covered themselves pretty well.

Perry

[suby01]

hi guys thanks everyone for your comments in the super !@#$ tough time for me.

heres the update.


Monday:
i had the cobb accessport and protune just done a few days ago. but i did have my camshaft and other sensors replaced many many times. so something was going wrong with the car/engine for some time apparently now. the times that i took the car in for the same sensor replacement could of easily made it a lemon law.

they dealer said that the timing chain and crankshaft wont turn. of course they pointed all the mods i had and outlined them all. they did mention that my engine is completely damaged and inoperable.

i talked to many many people away from this forums car protuners and shops and nothing that i have done to or with the car could of made this happen. Seriously its the infamous HR. !@#$%@^


Thurs
i asked them so send me to paperwork email or whatever. that would state the what specific part caused what specific damage. they refused to do that. the engine is apart and hes like you seem to know a lot about cars come take a look at it. just being a real..... so i agreed going to go down first thing in the am. but they should also be prepared with some proof to backup their decision.

FRI:
called the insurance co... told them that something happened to car will not work. and they said that's not covered they would need to see paperwork from repair shop what caused damage and could proceed. since its none of those things it will not be covered.

SAT

so i went to the dealer in the morning..

the car was all taken apart it was a body with a whole pile or wires and parts.

the service guys showed what was wrong the camshaft spun causing the timing chain and everything else in the car to fail. the cause that they are saying is the pulley because it was on the camshaft and there's a chip on it, from where the key goes.

who knows if that broke or that's something that they broke to have something blame on it.

like i said in the beginning when i went on monday morning they said that it will be taken care under warranty even with everything on the car and will have engine at the dealer in a week and about a week to put it in.


my option was to fix the car for $13500 or to have to towed away which would cost me $4800 for putting the car back together and restocking fee for the engine. Because supposedly they have the engine there already.


or the dealer got a free engine and money from infinti and still charging me for it anyway.

my best bet would of been just taking the car from there towing it home and then sending it off to gtm fi or wherever and have them hook it up for a couple grand more would of had a nice FI setup. but they would not release the car in pieces and would cost me 5k just to get it back to me without nothing else.

i had till monday morning to give them an answer so im going with the replacement and going back to stock. for 13k. sucks cuz they have me by the balls. but whats done is done.

MON:
talked to the dealer they were able to give me a "discount" so its going to be $13,000 out the door should have the car back by the end of the week.

I just know it wasnt totally my fault the key lock on the camshaft got worn and broke off.
i mean how many times did i have the camshaft sensors replaced 5 times. those times i was pretty much still stock. so there had to have been some kind of factory defect already. and by me adding 50hp just sped it up to breaking at 25k miles not 50k or 70k.

final thoughts……….

what does the dealer care they just want to be tough guys and say were not covering it. honestly they would make more money because the part would be free of charge and they would still get $$ from infiniti for the labor. if they fixed it like they said they would in the first place i was going to trade it in for a new G. and later on this year purchase a convertible for my mom. but now they just lost a pretty valuable customer.

once again thanks everyone ill have some pics up of the surgery later on.
for once i thought i was finally done with my G everything i wanted and worked so hard for was all complete and now this. thats crap.

[2005g35]

sorry man...

your best bet is to argue for getting your car back as is without the charge.
It sounds like they are charging you a huge fee to make you go through with the repairs.


If you do a search on other car forum you will see that crank pulleys and higher rev limits have caused this damage before.

good luck

[zozoka1212]

Suby that suck arse.

Sorry bro.

[tollboothwilley]

SUBY

I wonder if the tuning aspect had anything to do with it...aside from the higher rev limit.

Have you taken that into consideration as well?

There is no reason that they can't release the car to you. You would have to pay them for their time/labor to this point, but you should be able to take it away in pieces if you're willing. Its your vehicle. They are just trying to carry you around by your sack.

[pfarmer]

hi guys thanks everyone for your comments in the super !@#$ tough time for me.

heres the update.


Monday:
i had the cobb accessport and protune just done a few days ago. but i did have my camshaft and other sensors replaced many many times. so something was going wrong with the car/engine for some time apparently now. the times that i took the car in for the same sensor replacement could of easily made it a lemon law.


the service guys showed what was wrong the camshaft spun causing the timing chain and everything else in the car to fail. the cause that they are saying is the pulley because it was on the camshaft and there's a chip on it, from where the key goes.

who knows if that broke or that's something that they broke to have something blame on it.

One thing that bothers me about this is a chip in the key slot. I assume your pulley has no active dampening and is only balanced. Are they stating the chip is on the keyway or on the pulley?

You may want to get the engine back as well depending on if there is a core charge for the affected assembly. The reason is that there are ways of telling what caused the event. If it was actually a pulley failure you may have a cause of action, but not with Infiniti. A manufacturing defect can often be determined. Just make sure the pulley is not sent back to the manufacturer for examination. This can cost some bucks but the payback may well make up for it. Keep in mind this could work both ways for you. That is it is also possible to analyze the crankshaft. Metal fatigue due to vibration etc. from a pulley can be determined separate from a failure due to a manufacturing problem with a crank.

As far as the restocking fee, they initiated the sending of the engine based on their position of it being a warranty claim and then reversed their decision. I think they should eat that if you decide to rabbit. They knew what was on your car at the time they initiated the warranty claim to Infiniti. This to me lends some credence to just maybe they were trying to bite the hand that feeds them and got caught themselves.

Perry


Modified by pfarmer at 10:59 AM 6/30/2009

[suby01]

sorry man...

your best bet is to argue for getting your car back as is without the charge.
It sounds like they are charging you a huge fee to make you go through with the repairs.


If you do a search on other car forum you will see that crank pulleys and higher rev limits have caused this damage before.

good luck

thanks but there has yet to be engine failure for the HR motors. esp when im NA. the 07+Gs are different than the previous gens.

SUBY

I wonder if the tuning aspect had anything to do with it...aside from the higher rev limit.

Have you taken that into consideration as well?

There is no reason that they can't release the car to you. You would have to pay them for their time/labor to this point, but you should be able to take it away in pieces if you're willing. Its your vehicle. They are just trying to carry you around by your sack.

yo bro. thats exactly it, they got me where they want, like i said if the car was put together there would been no way id go back to stack drop more $$ and go TT built the block. but believe me when i say there was nothing on the car mechanical and electrical. in other words they just did that for appearance. no axles no anything just the body so i would have the drag the car on its body frame to get it out. lol.

the tune had nothing to do. i mean really all he did was straighten out the af curve and only got 15whp from that so i mean more power but thats the general outcome of aftermarket parts. i was still NA.

Suby that suck arse.

Sorry bro.

thanks zozo. if you do me a favor and down some for your homey please. it will make it feel a bit better.

One thing that bothers me about this is a chip in the key slot. I assume your pulley has no active dampening and is only balanced. Are they stating the chip is on the keyway or on the pulley?

You may want to get the engine back as well depending on if there is a core charge for the affected assembly. The reason is that there are ways of telling what caused the event. If it was actually a pulley failure you may have a cause of action, but not with Infiniti. A manufacturing defect can often be determined. Just make sure the pulley is not sent back to the manufacturer for examination. This can cost some bucks but the payback may well make up for it. Keep in mind this could work both ways for you. That is it is also possible to analyze the crankshaft. Metal fatigue due to vibration etc. from a pulley can be determined separate from a failure due to a manufacturing problem with a crank.

As far as the restocking fee, they initiated the sending of the engine based on their position of it being a warranty claim and then reversed their decision. I think they should eat that if you decide to rabbit. They knew what was on your car at the time they initiated the warranty claim to Infiniti. This to me lends some credence to just maybe they were trying to bite the hand that feeds them and got caught themselves.

Perry


Modified by pfarmer at 10:59 AM 6/30/2009

thats exactly it!!!!!!!
they said hey warranty then whatever else came out and now they are shafting me. thats very clear and easy to see.

the chip on the key was on the pulley itself. now just like you said UR doesnt have any type of warranty at all however.

i dont know what they will do with the old engine. or how that works??


Modified by suby01 at 6:03 PM 6/30/2009

[tollboothwilley]

Thats bogus. Why was the car off its axles? Maybe its diff cuz you are an X... but that seems extreme. Also, I'd be most pissed that they told you it was covered and then they went back on their word. From the beginning if they told you "Hey, we don't know about this and whether or not it is covered...etc, etc..."then at least they were honest up front. I don't like the sound of the bogus crap they are pulling on you.