engine damage. advice and suggestions needed please.

[Poyzinous]

For warranty engines, the motor gets sent back to infiniti technical and they have their labcoat techs look over the engine. They R&D these things for simulated quarter million miles before they go into production, so they like to know what causes failures the few times it happens. We've yet to do one of the Newer motors. A G37 motor was replaced because of an odd untraceable defect about a year ago, infiniti wanted us to just replace the whole motor instead of find out what was going on, because they wanted to see what happened.

[SteveTheTech]

I am very confused. I am sorry I don't really use the search feature but you have had a repetitive intake timing control issue?

This is a very slippery slope and I am going to tread very carefully.

Unless there is severe damage to the valves and pistons (from catalyst debris) and if the damage is limited to cam, and timing chains and the broken dowel pin it may not have been your fault.....However there is no way to prove it with the UD pulley on there.

You are indeed by the short hairs here. It so happened that no one warranties the parts you chose. I am really sorry to hear about that.

Have you tried calling CA? 13k is an extraordinary amount of money and I am highly doubting they are going to bill warranty and charge you. However putting a call into corporate may get you a slightly better deal. The crank pulleys on the HRs are pretty light and I find it hard to believe that that effected your engines demise. A bent or slightly damaged dowel pin will cause idle control issues but would have been easily proved with data monitor and a compression test.

Even if you split the cost with them that would still save you a few grand.

Good Luck

[bentrod]

Suby: Good old Harte Infiniti! I could tell you stories about how they tried to defraud me when I purchased my wife's 2003 that will make your hair stand on end. Don't trust them a bit.

Have you considered buying a used engine to get it back to running and trading it in? I saw a 2007 engine with 23k miles for under $2600. I'm sure the labor will not be cheap, but a long, long way from $13.5k.

http://www.car-part.com

2007EngineInfiniti G35 23K 6 MONTH WARRANTY #578852C 23,000 EE063 $2588 Borges Foreign Auto USA-MA(Dighton) Request_Quote 1-800-662-6150 Request_Insurance_Quote

[SteveTheTech]

Warranty pays 9.2 hrs to R&I a long block in an 07 G35x. Anymore than 10 is excessive.

It is highly likely that you will get the dealer to install things like a JY long block.

The more I read about poor Subys trials and tribulations the more skeptical I am getting about this. At first I was ready to blame the aftermarket parts...however there may have been an underlying issue. But...since the warranty is technically voided by any number of the components installed on this car.

Suby- You need to start making some phone calls. The aftermarket parts are a huge red flag but.....

[C-Kwik]

I'd stop any further repairs and speak with Nissan/Infiniti (Corporation) directly. Make sure they are actually denying the warranty and can provide documentation of such as I explained before. The dealer is not the final say and are really only the eyes and ears for the manufacturer on this. The dealership is not owned by Nissan/Infiniti either and as such, one does not necessarily work in the best interests of the other. Where I'm going with this is that dealers make less money on warranty work. Its conceivable that they may try and claim a warranty denial to see if you might pay out of pocket which could put more money in their pockets for the same repair. My first big red flag would have been the refusal to provide anything in writing.

I'd say ask for the car back as well. If, in the original work order, they didn't specify a cost to you for any repairs then you are not responsible for the charges. If they are not willing to release the vehicle in pieces, then it is on them to put it back together prior to releasing it back to you. If they refuse, get the appropriate local agency involved.

"THE REPAIR SHOP CANNOT CHARGE YOU MORE THAN THE ESTIMATE AMOUNT WHICH YOU APPROVE OR FOR REPAIRS WHICH YOU DO NOT AUTHORIZE. "

Here's where I pulled that from:

http://www.ct.gov/AG/cwp/view.asp?A=2066&Q=292356

the service guys showed what was wrong the camshaft spun causing the timing chain and everything else in the car to fail. the cause that they are saying is the pulley because it was on the camshaft and there's a chip on it, from where the key goes.

The pulley is on the camshaft? Last I checked the crank pulley is on the crankshaft. Am I missing something? If a camshaft failed, it wouldn't have spun on its own. Cams are driven by crank rotation. Its unlikely that there would be any significant force acting on the cam that could cause damage through a timing chain without some other catastrophic failure. BTW, any chance you took any photos of the failure?

[Tampa G35 Sedan 6MT]

As far as i know, Infiniti dealers get paid dollar for dollar on warranty work. If it would cost 500 bux to the customer then the Infiniti (Corp) pays that to the dealer.

That is why they love warranty work because they get the same money and the customer is happy because they don't have to pay!

I would also tell them (if you didn't sign a work order that you had to pay anything) to put it all back together and that you are going to take it else where for the repair.

They can't legally tell you that you can't have the car back! That is on them to put it back together if you didn't sign a work order with an estimated amount for the labor and parts.

I wouldn't give them a freaking penny until you knew you had no other way to go. Hell you could send it to a tunning company and have the thing rebuilt with turbos for less than 10k but that is just one option.

I would be on the horn with Infiniti Corp ASAP! Don't let them Shaft you like they do everyone else!

DJ

[pfarmer]

the chip on the key was on the pulley itself. now just like you said UR doesnt have any type of warranty at all however.

i dont know what they will do with the old engine. or how that works??

Modified by suby01 at 6:03 PM 6/30/2009

I just looked at the warranty again for the pulley. My thought is that while it looks like UR is home free, then you still need to look at the crank. In fact I haven't really heard exactly what the failure was in the engine. I am assuming you have a broken crank of some sort, severed, cracked, whatever.

A good metallurgist should be able to look at the point of failure and figure out what type of failure it is. If the crank itself is defective in manufacture then you may have a case with Infiniti regardless of what was attached to it. To show this you would have to know what is acceptable for a stock engine. That is every chunk of metal has some sort of anomaly present. The anomaly however may be deemed not to lead to failure over the lifespan of the machine under its designed use. A failure earlier when under a greater stress would be acceptable in my mind. However if an anomaly is present that could lead to an early failure under normal conditions than that is an entirely different animal.

You will have an uphill battle and just may want to accept what happened, but if you decide to follow a different course you need to make the moves now.

Perry

[pfarmer]

As far as i know, Infiniti dealers get paid dollar for dollar on warranty work. If it would cost 500 bux to the customer then the Infiniti (Corp) pays that to the dealer.

That is why they love warranty work because they get the same money and the customer is happy because they don't have to pay!

DJ

Not sure if this is really true. My thought is that essentially they would get the engine for free and then be given the cost of labor that would have been billed to the customer. If the engine is not under warranty than it seems like they will get the engine at whatever the dealer normally would pay for the engine. The dealer would then add his markup and charge both that and the labor to the customer.

To me the reason they like warranty work is that it provides a fairly stable source of revenue which they really do not have to compete for.

On the other hand since I have had so many issues on the same warranty issue I am inclined to take my machine elsewhere since one thing they do have to compete with is the quality of their work.

Perry

[suby01]

thanks guys. i went on the decision to say ok and have them perform the engine replacement. 13k.

now with that said i was going to call the infiniti hq. but then when i talked to the service manager he said infiniti gave approval for the warranty then just like someone said they engine would need to be sent back and they will have it fully inspected and right then and there they will find the same fault as in the aftermarket part making the damage and will not cover it and charge the dealer back for it. and since they dont have mr bob tech working on it they had to call over some specialist so they do it right that person mite and will lose their job because of credentials. bla bla.

with that said and done. do you guys think i can take the engine with me?isnt there a core or something? i mean i mite as well try getting a couple bucks for it at ebay or w.e.

or anything else that would work for me .

i mean im already sheet out a lot of money. but like also someone said it cant get worse so i can try getting a few pennies back somehow. thanks!!!!!!!!!

[zozoka1212]

To me that would make sense to take it with you. You paid for the new one and the pld should be yours. But instead of selling it would rebuild it and maybe throw a TT on it over the time. Than when your warranty is over wooohooo. Yeah you also get new warranty on the engine eh.

[suby01]

ya its going to be full warranty just matching up to what i had the 6 years 70k i think it is. i dont get a brand brand new one. i just get the warranty back technically lol. F that id let them keep the warranty for so much money.

[Poyzinous]

As far as i know, Infiniti dealers get paid dollar for dollar on warranty work. If it would cost 500 bux to the customer then the Infiniti (Corp) pays that to the dealer.That is why they love warranty work because they get the same money and the customer is happy because they don't have to pay!

And perry, thats not actually true. The dealer doesn't get dollar for dollar. Not service, not the techs, not parts dept. Rates are dropped, and percentage chunks are lower, so the tech and service rep only get between 70% and 80% as much if it were not warranty. Also, pricing for parts is set at a certain number infiniti decides, and so the Parts dept only gets about 70% of what they could be getting.

[pfarmer]

And perry, thats not actually true. The dealer doesn't get dollar for dollar. Not service, not the techs, not parts dept. Rates are dropped, and percentage chunks are lower, so the tech and service rep only get between 70% and 80% as much if it were not warranty. Also, pricing for parts is set at a certain number infiniti decides, and so the Parts dept only gets about 70% of what they could be getting.

You sure this should not be 'And Tampa'?

I figure they will make more money off warranty then on. However since warranty work is more of a 'stream' they like warranty work since it takes up some of the down time of the shop, a filler. I think warranty work is more of a break even and non-warranty work is at the higher margins. However without warranty work then during down times the shop has a negative cash flow. Even if warranty work didn't break even it decreases the amount of negative cash flow.

So if I understand the second part then there is a 30% markup on price. To me this 13k engine then is bringing in about 3500 bucks extra to the dealer with it 'off warranty'. So they get to charge the full amount for the engine making the profit on it (rightfully so) and do the same for labor for the install.

This would be a good reason to get the engine back for a cause of event analyses.

I don't believe in defrauding a corporation for warranty work which should not have been covered due to operation outside of the warranty. On the other hand if the product just may have had a defect to start with that could have affected the stock product then an adjustment may be in order.



Perry

[C-Kwik]

I figure they will make more money off warranty then on. However since warranty work is more of a 'stream' they like warranty work since it takes up some of the down time of the shop, a filler. I think warranty work is more of a break even and non-warranty work is at the higher margins. However without warranty work then during down times the shop has a negative cash flow. Even if warranty work didn't break even it decreases the amount of negative cash flow.

Work is work, even if they are getting paid a little less for it than regular work. But its work they didn't have to do any substantial marketing to receive. The other aspect is that it provides opportunity for cross-sales and can be a great opportunity to impress a customer to try and earn repeat business.

now with that said i was going to call the infiniti hq. but then when i talked to the service manager he said infiniti gave approval for the warranty then just like someone said they engine would need to be sent back and they will have it fully inspected and right then and there they will find the same fault as in the aftermarket part making the damage and will not cover it and charge the dealer back for it. and since they dont have mr bob tech working on it they had to call over some specialist so they do it right that person mite and will lose their job because of credentials. bla bla.

Its your money and thus your choice, but it simply pains me to see such a passive position when your talking about $13K. So I apologize if I come off persistent but I'd rather I see a member not have to drop that kind of coin without good reason.

That said, if a dealership makes a poor assessment then it is on them. As I said before, they can't charge you for what they do not get authorization for in advance. So their argument that Infiniti will send it back is weak. If this is what they contend, then the dealer can put that in writing. If not, then they should be asking Infiniti to make the call. As far as I can tell, Infiniti did not make the call here in any way, shape or form. Frankly, I'd be calling Infiniti to have them make the decision or at least confirm they were involved in the process. Last person I want making a decision on such a matter is one who serves to gain financially and is not bound to you under any kind of contractual obligation. From your description throughout, there is nothing transparent about what they are doing.

[Pamywyner]

Just wanted to let you know I believe I saw your car today! It was apart and my husband was told that it was the pullys that caused major engine damage. Guess they were waiting to hear back from the rep.

It was pretty crazy seeing it all apart like that. We've heard so many good things about these cars that it caught his eye and he had to ask about it. I told him I had been reading this thread on line for awhile now and had to be the same car!!

We wish you good luck with it. Sad to see it on the lift like that...

[SteveTheTech]

When you get into taking the engines apart on these cars for any significant reason they look like a mess. The last engine I did was in an FX45 I had parts and components and fluids everywhere. It's organized chaos. The majority of us can tell where 95% or the bolts go on these cars. Deep engine disassembly is impressive to see, the amount of stuff that is between the oil cap and the front of the engine is actually surprising.

[Pamywyner]

When you get into taking the engines apart on these cars for any significant reason they look like a mess. The last engine I did was in an FX45 I had parts and components and fluids everywhere. It's organized chaos. The majority of us can tell where 95% or the bolts go on these cars. Deep engine disassembly is impressive to see, the amount of stuff that is between the oil cap and the front of the engine is actually surprising.

Yes, my husband has been a tech and is a service manager with Goodyear for 28 years now. I'm surprised that he can put 'all that stuff' back together when an engine is apart!!! - but he can't figure out how to run a washing machine??

[SteveTheTech]

Yes, my husband has been a tech and is a service manager with Goodyear for 28 years now. I'm surprised that he can put 'all that stuff' back together when an engine is apart!!! - but he can't figure out how to run a washing machine??

My wife says the same thing. Something about that type of rational thought eludes us. My common area of .... failure include the back yard and completing the circle of laundry.

to Goodyear, I learned more in the 5 years I spent working in corporate stores in MA and VA than the next 5 years.

[C-Kwik]

When you get into taking the engines apart on these cars for any significant reason they look like a mess. The last engine I did was in an FX45 I had parts and components and fluids everywhere. It's organized chaos. The majority of us can tell where 95% or the bolts go on these cars. Deep engine disassembly is impressive to see, the amount of stuff that is between the oil cap and the front of the engine is actually surprising.

Its actually interesting to see how one can progress. My first major work was replacing a clutch on my 83 Celica. I must have read the Hayne's Manual 100 times as I worked up the nerve for it. It took me a weekend to complete but it was done. But I had about 8 bolts that I had no idea where they were supposed to go. As I began working on cars more and more, I ended up with less and less leftover parts. But until I stopped having parts leftover the running theme my friends and I shared was "if no parts are leftover, it wasn't done right."

but he can't figure out how to run a washing machine??

Have it modified so that the door opens with a hood latch, clothes are loaded through a funnel and the button to start it is a key.

[SteveTheTech]

My first major work was replacing a clutch on my 83 Celica. I must have read the Hayne's Manual 100 times as I worked up the nerve for it.

I never attempted a clutch in the driveway. I don't envy that, although the 84 was rwd wasn't it? The most crucial step in any type of major repair is making a mental note of the color,size, and location of everything you remove. A trick I learned along the way was to get a box of small ziptop sandwich bags and put the small components and bolts in bags, if the car is not going back together right away labeling them in conjunction with the picture from the FSM makes the reinstall much easier and almost eliminates the extra bolt pile.

Now I use an oil filter box and a magnetic tray (for large parts) when doing jobs of that scale. Space is at a premium though so things need to be in piles, as the cleanup guys tend to try to "help" and there is always more than one thing that needs your attention.

[C-Kwik]

I never attempted a clutch in the driveway.

I've done at least 7 in my driveway.

I don't envy that, although the 84 was rwd wasn't it?

Celicas were RWD up until 1986 IIRC.

The most crucial step in any type of major repair is making a mental note of the color,size, and location of everything you remove. A trick I learned along the way was to get a box of small ziptop sandwich bags and put the small components and bolts in bags, if the car is not going back together right away labeling them in conjunction with the picture from the FSM makes the reinstall much easier and almost eliminates the extra bolt pile.

Yeah, I did that when I replaced the headgasket and timing chain guides on my friend's 89 240sx. Its the first major repair I can recall that ended up with no missing or extra hardware.

[pfarmer]

I never attempted a clutch in the driveway. I don't envy that, although the 84 was rwd wasn't it? The most crucial step in any type of major repair is making a mental note of the color,size, and location of everything you remove. A trick I learned along the way was to get a box of small ziptop sandwich bags and put the small components and bolts in bags, if the car is not going back together right away labeling them in conjunction with the picture from the FSM makes the reinstall much easier and almost eliminates the extra bolt pile.

Now I use an oil filter box and a magnetic tray (for large parts) when doing jobs of that scale. Space is at a premium though so things need to be in piles, as the cleanup guys tend to try to "help" and there is always more than one thing that needs your attention.

I have done several clutches in the gravel, the hardest one being a 61 Sunbeam Alpine since you pull the engine and you pull it from under the car since access to the bell housing is so limited. The easiest being a 75 VW Scirroco, transmission on the kitchen table in under 45 minutes.

I always assume something will go wrong and keep all the parts organized. I once rebuilt my 650 Yamaha Engine in my living room, it took an extra month to get the parts so it ended up being a very good plan to keep everything all boxed and labeled. Basically a couple of square feet of engine took up the entire living room when disassembled. The one mistake I did make was the order of reinstallation of the oil pump which looked like it could go on at a certain time but you soon find out that you need to back up an hour or so in the sequence and start over. This is why it is also wise to have that lined up as well.

Perry

[SteveTheTech]

I envy you guys who tinker with cars as a hobby. I used to be like that, then I thought why not do what you like right??? I just cannot fathom doing heavy work on my back with the car <1meter off the ground, I'm a little spoiled an above ground rack is the best invention. Maybe I am a little jadded after a very long day.

I've done at least 7 in my driveway.

Yeah, I did that when I replaced the headgasket and timing chain guides on my friend's 89 240sx. Its the first major repair I can recall that ended up with no missing or extra hardware.

7 Really... or I don't know what is appropriate for that. You would be surprised how much different it is working on your feet.

I also cannot recall the last head gasket I have done...not usually a problem on 99.9% of Infinitis...and it usually works out cheaper in the unlikely event that something blows an HG to replace the whole engine with a low mile JY replacement. Although I am in a half as*ed hunt for a local RE4 rwd trans for rebuilding, but that is more of a project that will never come to fruition.

I have done several clutches in the gravel, the hardest one being a 61 Sunbeam Alpine since you pull the engine and you pull it from under the car since access to the bell housing is so limited. The easiest being a 75 VW Scirroco, transmission on the kitchen table in under 45 minutes.

...wow that doesn't really sound fun at all. VWs were notoriously easy to pull apart which made them a huge international success in the good old days. When I was with MB it was common practice to pull the engine for major repairs. I could pull an entire driveline out of an E and S class in about 1.5hrs. It always took about 2hrs-the whole day to get them back in(depending on work load). But that was in a body shop environment where it could be a month before you put the car back together and there was always one or more of your baggies missing.

It is kind of funny that warranty pays <2hrs to R&I a clutch on an older G.

[pfarmer]

...wow that doesn't really sound fun at all. VWs were notoriously easy to pull apart which made them a huge international success in the good old days. When I was with MB it was common practice to pull the engine for major repairs. I could pull an entire driveline out of an E and S class in about 1.5hrs. It always took about 2hrs-the whole day to get them back in(depending on work load). But that was in a body shop environment where it could be a month before you put the car back together and there was always one or more of your baggies missing.

It is kind of funny that warranty pays <2hrs to R&I a clutch on an older G.

In the case of the Sunbeam the transmission bolted to the bell housing on the inside of the bell housing with the tail shaft sitting inside of a cross memeber. The bell housing then was almost impossible to unbolt as well, so out the engine came to make it easy.

Perry

[SteveTheTech]

In the case of the Sunbeam the transmission bolted to the bell housing on the inside of the bell housing with the tail shaft sitting inside of a cross memeber. The bell housing then was almost impossible to unbolt as well, so out the engine came to make it easy.

Perry

I'm trying to visualize that and I think I need to go to the Google. Whatever it is it sounds awful. Very reminiccant of GM and the hatred for technicians when locating things like oil filters and other items that require periodic replacement.

[pfarmer]

I'm trying to visualize that and I think I need to go to the Google. Whatever it is it sounds awful. Very reminiccant of GM and the hatred for technicians when locating things like oil filters and other items that require periodic replacement.

Consider aligning the pilot shaft!

Perry
Modified by pfarmer at 10:45 AM 7/4/2009

[C-Kwik]

I envy you guys who tinker with cars as a hobby. I used to be like that, then I thought why not do what you like right??? I just cannot fathom doing heavy work on my back with the car <1meter off the ground, I'm a little spoiled an above ground rack is the best invention. Maybe I am a little jadded after a very long day.

I'm often glad I never went into work as a mechanic. I was urged to by a few people I knew, but I'm not sure I'd enjoy cars as much if I did. I hate working on stuff that isn't mine now.

7 Really... or I don't know what is appropriate for that. You would be surprised how much different it is working on your feet.

No worries man. I feel the same way sometimes. I'm proud of it at times, but when I'm in the middle of it, I always say, why the hell did I agree to this crap? Of course, half of them were my own so it was to save me some money. I can imagine working on your feet and with a proper transmission jack would make all the difference. Trying to get the upper bolts from under the car can be a real pain when you have to lift yourself up to it.

...wow that doesn't really sound fun at all. VWs were notoriously easy to pull apart which made them a huge international success in the good old days. When I was with MB it was common practice to pull the engine for major repairs. I could pull an entire driveline out of an E and S class in about 1.5hrs. It always took about 2hrs-the whole day to get them back in(depending on work load). But that was in a body shop environment where it could be a month before you put the car back together and there was always one or more of your baggies missing.

Frankly, with the headgasket and when we rebuilt my friend's motor, it would have been much better to pull the motor. With the headgasket, I didn't know better and was too late by the time I figured it out. With my friend's motor, we rebuilt his Supra motor with the block still installed. My friend insisted we not pull the motor despite my efforts to change his mind. The only good thing about that was we didn't have to truck around a motor to get it bored out (we did the work as he blew a piston, but he bought slightly oversized replacements). The local dealer referred him to a guy that had a mobile boring machine and did it in the garage. Expensive (relative to taking it in), but worked out fine.

[fiveliterbeater]

suby let me get this straight, you're going to have them put your car back 2gether for 13k????? this is crazy!!!! these guys are giving you the wrong advice!!! you need to tell those f*** at the dealer to keep their POS and do a voluntary repo on the car. ur credit will take a slight hit, but nothing that can't be fixed. on top of that you can take the money and get a newer better G37 sedan/coupe. forgive me if I mis-understood what ur decision is but I think ur crazy having those a-holes push you around! you are in control not them!

[Pamywyner]

I was at the dealer today and saw that suby01's car was put back together and gone. The old engine sitting outside.

Suby, give us an update!

[pfarmer]

...wow that doesn't really sound fun at all. VWs were notoriously easy to pull apart which made them a huge international success in the good old days. When I was with MB it was common practice to pull the engine for major repairs. I could pull an entire driveline out of an E and S class in about 1.5hrs. It always took about 2hrs-the whole day to get them back in(depending on work load). But that was in a body shop environment where it could be a month before you put the car back together and there was always one or more of your baggies missing.

It is kind of funny that warranty pays <2hrs to R&I a clutch on an older G.

I had the engine on the ground in a Corvair in under 50 feet. Wait a second that wasn't intentional. I was taking a fellow workers car out for a test drive. She wanted something like 50 bucks for it and I figured if it lasted a month it would be good enough for the 50 bucks. It lasted 50 feet when the engine fell on the ground and the car came to a halt. She comes screaming out of her booth 'what did you do to my car?'. Turns out it was missing the cotter key on the castle nut that holds the rear of the engine in place. It tore the ignition wires to the coil. I put the nut back on, put in a decent cotter key, spliced the wires, and she was able to drive off in about 20 minutes.

Think what this would have been like on I5 at 60 mph since that is where she drove everyday. She told me later she felt lucky that it failed when it did as it may well have killed her otherwise. Driving one of these was like driving a go kart. Driving a Monza was like driving a fast go kart.

Perry