Camber and Toe issues.

[z33nismo12]

I lowered my 350z. i bought a camber kit. I then took it to go get aligned, and they said that I dont have enough degrees in the toe to align it properly in the REAR. I dont know what i need to buy to make me have more toe.... They sell these toe rods, but they are the same as the camber kits..
Modified by z33nismo12 at 10:05 PM 8/13/2008

[turboitall]

negative camber ftw!

[Beancooker]

Negative camber is not toe. Toe is that the wheels are either cocked in or out.

The camber kit looks about the same as the toe kit, but they serve a different purpose. A camber kit will adjust how the wheels sit vertically. Negative camber means that the wheel will stick out more on the bottom, and be "tucked" in at the top.

A toe kit will connect into your tie rod end. It will pull the front of the tire in toward the engine, or push it out toward the fenders.

Here is a link to Stillen, and the parts for a 350Z.

[z33nismo12]

im talking about the rear, and you dont have a link!

[bmike818]

im talking about the rear, and you dont have a link!

Relax! we are here to help or next time we might just tell you to use

http://www.stillen.com/product...m=all

I even included a pic for you.

[z33nismo12]

Do you know where it connects at all.. im confused how this is set up. I have the camber adjuster running across.. But where the people were adjusting the toe during the alignment, it whas the part where the spring sits on. where does this arm go for that??

[JETPILOT]

Those stillen "toe rods" are worthless. You can't adjust toe correctly from that position. I don't know who invented those, but they had no idea what they were doing. You need to get SPC toe bolts. Contact Adam @ Z1. He can get you jsut the toe bolts. DO NOT BUY so called TOE ARMS. These eccentric toe bolts will give you a wider range of adjustment.

http://www.z1auto.com/prodmore...=1314


Modified by JETPILOT at 2:11 PM 8/14/2008

[C-Kwik]

Those stillen "toe rods" are worthless. You can't adjust camber correctly from that position. I don't know who invented those, but they had no idea what they were doing.

Toe control rods are not made to adjust camber and camber arms are not made to adjust toe. Two separate adjustments are needed. You make a rather silly argument against the people designing Stillen's toe control rods considering you apperar to have no idea what you're talking about.

Eccentric bolts are cheap and effective methods of adjusting the alignment in places they can be used, but their adjustment range is limited to the space available in the bolt hole or perhaps the bushing housing if they use an eccentric bushing. In theory, a threaded arm can be extended or shortened as far as the threads allow. One could thread the entire arm if they so chose to, but that would be an impractical range of adjustment. Fine tuning a threaded rod would also be loads easier than trying to position and tighten an eccentric bolt. Bear in mind that bolts tend to like to trun when torque is applied to them. And considering you have to tighten them hard enough to prevent it from slipping, there is plenty of torque that would be applied. Not saying eccentric bolts don't work or aren't effective. They most certainly are. But they are not inherently better than a threaded rod. They are cheap. And thats really the only benefit to them (not necessarily a bad one though).

[JETPILOT]

I meant to say you can't adjust "toe" from that point. Not camber as I mistakenly stated.

I hope your not refering to me as "not knowing what I'm talking about". I have more experience in 350Z suspension than anyone two people you choose to name combined.

The only correct point to change the toe on the car is along the axis of the lower control arm and NOT the traction arm. Toe CANNOT be adjusted corrctly from that point. It will throw off the suspension geometry.

If you go with a coil on damper in the rear then you can take out the OEM lower control arm which uses the ecentric toe bolt from the factory and replace it with a toe adjustable lower control arm like the Battle Version arms.

From reading your explanation I don't think you have a real grasp of the rod he wants to replace with this sham of a "toe rod".

[dasoupdude]

God, i just love reading what jetpilot, bean and c-wik post..i almost feel guilty from learning all this stuff for free.

[BlackSmoke]

me too I feel like I should be paying for college credit. Good info guys.

[C-Kwik]

I hope your not refering to me as "not knowing what I'm talking about". I have more experience in 350Z suspension than anyone two people you choose to name combined.

Riiiight. I'd rather you bring forth your technical knowledge than try to boast about your "experience". It would show a lot more of what you claim to know than simply claiming to know...

The only correct point to change the toe on the car is along the axis of the lower control arm and NOT the traction arm. Toe CANNOT be adjusted corrctly from that point. It will throw off the suspension geometry.

Changing the length of an arm or using an eccentric bolt will both change suspension geometry. An eccentric bolt works by moving the pivot point of an arm. So it also changes the suspension's geometry. There is always some level of compromise with any solution. Especially with a lowered car as the rates the wheel angles change will differ than it would at stock height. But, if you feel that the eccentric bolt on the LCA is the better option, please share your observations.

From reading your explanation I don't think you have a real grasp of the rod he wants to replace with this sham of a "toe rod".

I most certainly do know which arm the Stillen toe adjuster replaces. However, I'll admit that my initial thought was that the eccentric bolts were going to be used on the radius arms (the photo isn't too clear on the site you linked). Be that as it may, the toe rods do effectively change toe. And considering that the radius arm is a big reason for a change in toe in the first place, it certainly makes sense to try and adjust it from there. In any case, changing the pivot point of the LCA or the length of the radius arm both present its own set of issues. I'd speculate, the most die hard suspension tuners would prefer to have the ability to adjust every link in some form or other. Perhaps pultiple adjustments. But that would likely be overkill for most people...

[JETPILOT]

The “toe rods” (radius rods) that are sold to adjust toe do adjust toe, but they do not do so independently of adjusting caster.

Toe was designed to be adjusted form the lower control arm eccentric bolts. If you adjust this bolt you adjust toe only.

If you attempt to adjust toe from an adjustable length radius rod you will simply throw the toe off and possibly out of range of what can be recovered through the eccentric toe bolt. If your caster is withing OEm spec then there is no reason to adjust the length of the radius rod to adjust toe when the factory put in a toe adjustment point.

So install the adjustable radius rod which is sold as a “toe rod” and enjoy screwing your caster to achieve the toe adjustments your after. Doesn’t make sense.

I am no suspension genious but I have spent a lot of time underneath my car and I have run suspension simulations on the computer and watched the effect of different changes to toe, caster, and camber and this is what I learned.

The SPC toe bolt and an elongated adjustment hole is the correct way to adjust toe just like the factory intended it to be.
Modified by JETPILOT at 10:02 PM 8/15/2008

[redsx13]

This may sound stupid, but is it really that important to adjust the rear toe?Just do the front toe, the rear camber, and the front camber (if aftermarket arms are installed) plus any other alignment tweaks and call it a day. just get it close. Its not like its a race car, and your trying to gain any possible edge over the competition to win. its a street car. plus, the toe has not changed that much, its just not at factory specs, so what!! dont waist your time and money.

This doesnt need to turn into a post-off to see who is more knowledgeable, and who knows more about what. the guy is just asking for some advice. Lets give it to him simple enough to understand. if not, he'll just be sitting there not able to understand what he just read, and still confused on what to do.(although I am impressed with some of the points you guys are making, very very helpful to the rite person .)


Modified by redsx13 at 11:25 PM 8/15/2008

[JETPILOT]

Your incorrect. Toe is the number one casue of worn tires. Even more than cmaber. If you lower your car your changing both the camber and toe. You need a way to get them back into spec unless you like replacing your tires and having strange handling issues. This is lowering 101. You don't wanrt to do it.... don't do it. It's not my car.

Camber arms and SPC toe bolts are the only correct way to do it.

[C-Kwik]

The “toe rods” (radius rods) that are sold to adjust toe do adjust toe, but they do not do so independently of adjusting caster.

Right, but changing the length of the"camber arm" does as well since the radius arm would follow an arc that pushes the spindle back as the camber arm is pulled in.

Toe was designed to be adjusted form the lower control arm eccentric bolts. If you adjust this bolt you adjust toe only.

As far as I can tell, none of the lower suspension arms would isolate any one critical alignment angle as none of them are on any of the planes of a critical angle. Even the LCA would cause some change in camber (perhaps negligible, but still there).

If you attempt to adjust toe from an adjustable length radius rod you will simply throw the toe off and possibly out of range of what can be recovered through the eccentric toe bolt. If your caster is withing OEm spec then there is no reason to adjust the length of the radius rod to adjust toe when the factory put in a toe adjustment point.

Frankly, lowering the car in that of itself tends to throw alot of things off. Namely the rates of dynamic alignment changes that are designed to create a specific handling trait. Depending on your goals, this could be good or bad. I agree that trying to isolate toe is a good thing, but already having lowered it, it may have negatively affected the dynamic camber and dynamic toe rates of change. Then again, it could have had some positive effects.

So install the adjustable radius rod which is sold as a “toe rod” and enjoy screwing your caster to achieve the toe adjustments your after. Doesn’t make sense.

I don't call any options ideal. Short of being able to adjust everything, including mounting locations for the suspension arms, everything involves some level of compromise. Even factory adjustments.

I am no suspension genious but I have spent a lot of time underneath my car and I have run suspension simulations on the computer and watched the effect of different changes to toe, caster, and camber and this is what I learned.

I think we can all appreciate the knowledge you're bringing to the table here, but ultimately, most people here are simply looking for an alignment fix. I'm not trying to say the eccentric bolt is a bad thing. As I said prior, my assumption was that the eccentric bolt was being used on the radius arm. In which case, it was just a comparison of eccentric bolt vs adjustable arm. The other point had much more to do with the mix up with words.

The SPC toe bolt and an elongated adjustment hole is the correct way to adjust toe just like the factory intended it to be.

Perhaps, but the OE also isn't going to have considered the effects of lowering a car in their design either. otherwise none of the companies out there would be creating such solutions.

[JETPILOT]

Your dancing around the issue.

If you want to correct toe the factory gave us a toe adjustment point. If you want to adjust camber the factory gave us a camber adjustment point. When you lower a car you need to adjust camber and toe to factory spec.

Why would you put in an adjustable radius arm to change caster to remedy toe and camber?

Here is a pic of the JUN time attack 350Z. Built from the frame up to be a race car. Do you see an adjustable radius rod in this picture? Nope! Do you see and adjustable lower control arm? The same position from where you adjust OEM toe? Yep!


Modified by JETPILOT at 5:00 PM 8/16/2008

[redsx13]

Your incorrect. Toe is the number one casue of worn tires. Even more than cmaber. If you lower your car your changing both the camber and toe. You need a way to get them back into spec unless you like replacing your tires and having strange handling issues. This is lowering 101. You don't wanrt to do it.... don't do it. It's not my car.

Camber arms and SPC toe bolts are the only correct way to do it.

i know toe wares tires. but unless you lower your car 3in+, the rear toe is not going to be that off.

And seeing on how the z is already a low car, lowering your car won't have as much effect on a z as a it would on a car that is meant to ride higher off the ground. plus, a certain amount of rear toe is beneficial to handling.

but dont get me wrong! adjusting the rear toe to the factory specs is the right way to do it.

[JETPILOT]

That's also incorrect. Just lowering an inch will put toe out of spec.

Toe being beneficial to handling is subjective. Sometimes you'd like to have positive toe in the rear on a tight course like an autocross for quick turn in. Sometimes you'd like to have negative toe for high speed stability on a fast road course, and some drivers like no toe like myself. To say it's beneficial or not depends on the circumstances.

It sounds like your guessing at what happens when you lower your car. I have seen cars lowered 1"on Eibach springs and the toe bolt maxed out and the toe was still out of spec.

This conversation is over on my end. Do whatever you want. Like I said the cars are yours. I'm simply passing on what I know. If you don't want to listen then don't.

[RCAnismo]

I was looking at the Eibach 1in.lowering springs today. I do zero track days with my car and it would be strictly for street use. I was going to get these springs and some nice aftermarket shocks.

(In laymens terms) Am I safe just to buy these 2 items, take it to my local alignment shop and be done with it? It sounds like I'm opening myself up to a world of problems......

[JETPILOT]

What 2 items?

Camber rods and toe bolts? or shocks and springs?

[redsx13]

I was looking at the Eibach 1in.lowering springs today. I do zero track days with my car and it would be strictly for street use. I was going to get these springs and some nice aftermarket shocks.

(In laymens terms) Am I safe just to buy these 2 items, take it to my local alignment shop and be done with it? It sounds like I'm opening myself up to a world of problems......

I've been running around a 1.6 inch drop on just springs and shocks for a while now with no problems what-so-ever. Only thing is, i drive it about 50% track and despite the drop, i still dont have enough negative camber in the front. I have 245 40's in the front running at 46psi and i still *can't* keep my pilot sport 2's from wearing the sidewalls.

but to get your car to factory specs, you need aftermarket rear toe, rear camber, and front camber adjustments.
Modified by redsx13 at 11:28 PM 8/18/2008

[RCAnismo]

I was only planning on buying the shocks and springs. Or possibly a coilover set.

Oh yeah, I also just ordered some new wheels. They are 19x8.5 +25 F and 19x10.5 +22R with 235/35/19 F and 275/30/19 R

[C-Kwik]

Your dancing around the issue.

Please feel free to explain how I'm dancing around the issue...

If you want to correct toe the factory gave us a toe adjustment point. If you want to adjust camber the factory gave us a camber adjustment point. When you lower a car you need to adjust camber and toe to factory spec.

Why would you put in an adjustable radius arm to change caster to remedy toe and camber?

All I am saying is the factory toe adjustment point doesn't appear to isolate the toe. In much the same way adjusting the camber arm doesn't isolate camber.

Ultimately, I'm not arguing that using the radius arm is the best appraoch. That is dependent on many things. The safe bet for most would be use the LCA. But for me, I'd be taking a more comprehensive approach to trying to acheive better handling. Which means I am going to look at toe changes as a result of compression along with a look at how agressively I want such changes to occur as a stiffer suspension may need more to compensate for the lower compressability.

Here is a pic of the JUN time attack 350Z. Built from the frame up to be a race car. Do you see an adjustable radius rod in this picture? Nope! Do you see and adjustable lower control arm? The same position from where you adjust OEM toe? Yep!

So how does this prove your point? Companies other than Stillen also use the radius arm to adjust toe as well.

Toe being beneficial to handling is subjective. Sometimes you'd like to have positive toe in the rear on a tight course like an autocross for quick turn in. Sometimes you'd like to have negative toe for high speed stability on a fast road course, and some drivers like no toe like myself. To say it's beneficial or not depends on the circumstances.

Either you have the terminology or your understanding about rear toe mixed up.

Positive rear toe (Toe-in) will help with stability. Negative rear toe (Toe-out), will improve turn-in response.

I don't agree that it is subjective but I do agree it is dependent. A certain toe setting on a 350Z will probably possess a much different handling behavior than the same setting on a Porsche 911.

I've been running around a 1.6 inch drop on just springs and shocks for a while now with no problems what-so-ever. Only thing is, i drive it about 50% track and despite the drop, i still dont have enough negative camber in the front. I have 245 40's in the front running at 46psi and i still keep my pilot sport 2's from wearing the sidewalls.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. If you're not riding on your sidewalls, it sounds like you have enough negative camber...

[redsx13]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. If you're not riding on your sidewalls, it sounds like you have enough negative camber...

oops, sorry. i ment.... i still cant keep from wearing out my front tire's sidewalls.

[C-Kwik]

You might try other things first. Part of the roll onto your sidewall may be from overdriving. Go into a turn too hot and you'll understeer. Its hard to power out of understeer if it means you'll take a wider line than the track allows. Try braking a bit sooner and enter the turn more slowly. Then power out sooner taking a later apex. Also, try to use some trailbraking to bring the rear around initially. You can work up to this from a slower entry.

If driving technique can't overcome the issue, then you could try using stiffer sway bars to reduce body roll and perhaps tune for a bit more rear bias to help increase the rear slip angle (which will reduce load on the front tires).

Adjusting static camber can help, but it will affect braking performance.

[TeflonG35]

just be happy that your rod that controls camber isen't bent like this.

[C-Kwik]

just be happy that your rod that controls camber isen't bent like this.

Is THAT the factory camber adjustment technique?

[redsx13]

You might try other things first. Part of the roll onto your sidewall may be from overdriving. Go into a turn too hot and you'll understeer. Its hard to power out of understeer if it means you'll take a wider line than the track allows. Try braking a bit sooner and enter the turn more slowly. Then power out sooner taking a later apex. Also, try to use some trailbraking to bring the rear around initially. You can work up to this from a slower entry.

If driving technique can't overcome the issue, then you could try using stiffer sway bars to reduce body roll and perhaps tune for a bit more rear bias to help increase the rear slip angle (which will reduce load on the front tires). Adjusting static camber can help, but it will affect braking performance.

Thankyou C-KWIK,

A thicker front anti-sway bar might not be a bad idea. I want to point something out though, I dont really have any problems with understeer, but i do have problems with oversteer It may just be my tires though, i have 245/40/18 michelin pilot sport 2's up front, and 265/40/18 continental sportcontact 2's in the rear. The continental's make the car feel really squirrely, oversteering all over the place. so i had to up the front psi to 46 and drop the rear psi to 32 to compensate. As for my driving technique, it is a bit strange. i will breke lightly and then powerslide into a turn, rather than brake hard coming into a turn. I dont know why i do this, but it may just be because its simply more fun. and because im really a drifter at heart.

[TeflonG35]

Is THAT the factory camber adjustment technique?

Thats what curbs do when you slide into them.. It hurts. I had to hack saw off the lateral arm because the car was sitting in a apartment complex parking lot. No way to get power tools there.