Blown 25 AMP fuse for power windows

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Infinitiguy19
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I have good news, bad news and sad news and will be posted in respective order:

1. I found the problems and it is in the M12-E102 SMJ*

Super Multiple Junction AKA Super Multiple Junction CLUSTER f***.

I think the problem arose when I installed the 1994-1996 Q45 tweeters and I was fishing the wire through.

2. The problem is in the SMJ which is not easy to get to.

3. My car after this fix will no longer have the OEM untouched electrical harness, Hence will no longer be all OEM. Won't go good at the Barrett Jackson car auction.

Funny thing this showed up right after I pulled the J30 key less entry stuff off the car. If it showed up later I would have thought it was a problem with the alarm.

Something else I shouldn't share but what the hell here goes: My parents always said it was because of the stuff I added on, Well it wasn't added to the circuit but it did cause this problem. I did get the go ahead for the J30 keyless entry if I let someone else do it for me.

So now to find the bad wire.


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Q451990
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How did you diagnose that it's in the SMJ?

Heath

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Infinitiguy19
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Checked to see if there was any amps in the circuit breaker connectors (1 and 2) and there was none. So I unscrewed the SMJ (10MM bolt) and I measure again this time no resistance. I checked each circuit breaker one by one and no change in results. So I can only surmise when I was running the wires through for the tweeter I may have nicked that one wire. But since I am checking that wire I might as well check the rest.

I also took some pictures for you guys which I hope you will like from this ordeal.

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Q451990
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So to clarify, you have a 2.7ma load with the SMJ connected, and 0 current draw when it's disconnected? If it's a 2.7ma load, I don't think it's significant anyhow. The fuse doesn't blow until you get to 25amps... a milliamp is 1000th of an amp, so you're looking at nothing... memory on a circuit, meter error, etc.

In any case, isn't the SMJ is between the circuit breakers and everything else on the circuit? If so, all you have done is eliminate the rest of the circuit that's "downstream" of the SMJ.

Heath

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Infinitiguy19
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Well I was fiddling around the drivers speaker area trying to get a connector for the tweeters. Because right now there is just wire there and it makes it hard to remove the speaker, When the 25 AMP fuse blew. The fuse also blows at random times but mostly when the car is starting up so I assume the engine starting up is moving the car a little and the bad wire causing the fuse to blow. I tried to take measurement with a VOM in hopes of replicating the problem to see how much power is going through and when its causing the fuse to blow, but no such luck.

So I will go to the junkyard and practice removing and taking the SMJ apart so I don't make more problems. But I have ruled out that there is nothing wrong with the part of the harness in the engine bay E102. But the problem lies with M12 in the passenger compartment. So that narrows it down to the connector and wires part of M12 ONLY.

But like I said something is causing a power spike and with the speakers unplugged it did'nt make a difference as the fuse still blew. I was thinking the tweeter wire might be some how causing problems.

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Infinitiguy19
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Okay its not the SMJ because I looked at the wires and ther fine. I disconnected the part of the SMJ going to the interior harness and I tested the part of the SMJ going into the engine bay towards the fuse box and it still registered at ~2.40 Mili-Amps.

So my question is: does this fuse have any AMP's when the key is out of the ignition and the doors are closed? To test just remove the brown 25 AMP fuse.

I plan to replace the Power Window relay just to see what happens.

I unplugged both circuit breakers and measured voltage and AMP's going through them and it came back all zero's.

Weird thing is though with the SMJ unplugged and the connectors separated I tested the fuse for AMP's and it came back all zero's.

I used my last fuse I had today to open the sun roof because I left ONLY the power window and sun roof circuit breaker in. And the fuse still blew after I turned the key for a second time.

The fuse sometimes blows instantly and sometimes it take a second turn of the key.
Last edited by Infinitiguy19 on Sun Feb 20, 2011 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

qship96
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Maybe a dumb question,but whats a "google" number???

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Infinitiguy19
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https://www.google.com/voice

Basically you give out the number given to you by Google and you add a cell/work or home phone to the account so when someone call you you can answer it. Something nice to have for some people that you can't really trust...

rioredstang
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Have you looked at the harness that goes through the door to the "A" piller to make sure you don't have some wires shorting together. The harness sometimes gets pulled tight in the curve and will pull wires apart. You can't always look at current draw because some of the modules on a circuit do not time out(go to sleep) for up to a hour after switch is turned off. A 2ma draw is ok. I usally don't worry about anything under a 100ma draw if your battery is not going dead. I would unplug the circuits to the door and see if you blow the fuse. You can take a old fuse and solder (2) wires to it then attach blade connectors a circuit breaker to test with. If you use a 10a breaker you can hear it snapping when you have a short. Try grabbing harness and shaking to see if it shorts.

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Infinitiguy19
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I looked at the wires I put in for the A-pillar tweeters and when I wiggle them nothing changes.

I unplugged the speakers to prevent power going to the tweeter in hopes of stopping problem but no luck.

There is a backup power supply unit for the clock, trip odometer...But that works as far as I know and its located in back of the instrument cluster.

But on the Q45 is ~2 Mili AMPs from the power window fuse fine?

I will be looking at the Electronic devices fuse (Top 10 AMP fuse in interior fuse box). I will look at that because when the power window fuse blow the passenger seat does'nt work but that may because the seat control units are tied together??? The seat may not work but I can hear the motor wanting to move. And when the power window fuse does'nt blow it actually works too. But everything else on the "Electronic devices" works when the passenger seat does'nt.

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh...tlink http://picasaweb.google.com/lh...tlinkh ... lh...tlink

rioredstang
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I will try to look at wire diagram and power dist. tomorrow at work. I will get back to you soon.

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goody90q45
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Paul Wall wrote:.....The seat may not work but I can hear the motor wanting to move. And when the power window fuse doesn't blow it actually works too......
Is the seat binding on something? A coin in the rail? Why is it there no movement when you hear a seat motor running?

Another thing to check.....since you installed 1990 front seat controllers in your 93Q try unplugging both seat controllers and the seats themselves (connector is under the seat) to get them off the circuit.

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Infinitiguy19
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Thanks Heath, Mike, Qship96, rioredstang and anyone I missed for your help so far.

I plan to unplug both circuit breakers which everything on that fuse leads into. When I do that the fuse should no longer blow which will be a good sign because the problem should be before the circuit breakers somewhere. But its getting expensive to fix and test my theories on this problem because the fuses are $5 EACH.

I took apart the 1990 and 1991-1993 Q45 seat controls just to look for any differences and there are none really at all. So I doubt that could be the problem but you never know I suppose.

Also to reiterate with the power window circuit breaker plugged in the fuse blow when you turn the key over a second time. Meaning you raise the windows take the key out then put the key back in to lower the windows.

When both the circuit breakers are plugged in the fuse blows on the second time the key is inserted into the IGN* (when the ADP* activates).

The ignition has never been touched by my hands or ever I think because it works fine with the exception of the wheel lock not working when the key is removed. Well it does work but you have to turn the wheel in a certain position for it to lock.

IGN=IgnitionADP=Automatic Driver Postioner.

So if anyone has any info to offer that they don't want to post just call me up and I will call you back if you want me to pay for the call. Or I can offer some parts from my list in my signature for any help leading to a fix, You pay shipping and parts are up to $50.

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Q451990
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I think the wheel lock is functioning normally. I think you should unplug everything fed by that circuit. Then put the fuse in and see what happens. If it still blows, you know it's a wiring issue. If not it is something on the circuit. Plug things in one by one until you blow the fuse.

If I had to bet $$ I would guess a binding or defective seat motor. Something the ADP is doing differently on the second cycle vs. the first...

Heath

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Infinitiguy19
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Well the circuit breakers are the only things that are connected to the fuse and everything that uses the fuse is connected to the circuit breakers as far as I know.

What I hate yet again about the service manual is that the "Power Window" fuse is not shown anywhere in the individual systems wiring diagrams, Yet another FSM error???

I had thought it might be a bad power window relay but wouldn't a bad relay stick open and make a sound?

Honestly I think this car is riddled with electrical problem because sometimes the front cigarette light sometimes has power fluctuations. Meaning my radar detector rests when I hit some bumps...But that may be the fuse in the interior coming loose again. The rear dome light burns out so I want to replace the dome light assembly and see what that does.

It seems I help people more than I receive help and I mean locally to me not really on NICO.

Anything at all would help me i mean call me what ever you want I just want some help.

And I am thinking about getting a new harness and just installing a new harness all around, But if I or someone else do it it might not be the same as it came from the factory.

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goody90q45
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Paul Wall wrote:........I plan to unplug both circuit breakers which everything on that fuse leads into. When I do that the fuse should no longer blow which will be a good sign.......
Q451990 wrote:.......I think you should unplug everything fed by that circuit. Then put the fuse in and see what happens. If it still blows, you know it's a wiring issue.
Paul you're missing the advice that we're all giving you. Quit measuring volts and amps and burning out fuses and circuit breakers and start unplugging components on the circuit. Unplug it all, check with a new fuse, and if it doesn't blow reconnect each component one at a time until the fuse does blow. You've done enough parting out to know that you can have all the window and seat motors, dome lights and sunroof motor unplugged in less than an hour.

Just for kicks go unplug the two brake lamp modules and see what happens.

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Infinitiguy19
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Well I am trying it your way Mike and I disconnected both circuit breakers and put the $5 25 AMP brown fuse in and it did'nt blow so far.

And the door locks are not causing this problem because the fuse never blew when I operated them. I am fairly sure I can add the power seats to that list too.

So I think the problem lies with the ADP like Heath said.

Man Yesterday was a terrible day but today I went back to my roots and started up my home server in the beautiful Antec 900 case. Had a mechanical Hard Drive Problem and I am fixing it now with Spin Rite. It feels good to know what your doing 100% and being in control.

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So you have once again diagnosed that your problem is beyond the circuit breakers.

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Infinitiguy19
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Well did some experimenting today and I turned off ADP with the cancel switch. The seats and door locks worked and the steering wheel even came down. But once I believe I pressed the cancel switch again the fuse blew.

Last time I had the power window circuit breaker plugged in and I think I had the power door and seat and ADP circuit breaker plugged in too and the fuse blew. But damn the fuses are $8 at Joe and MSRP at $10.

So have ADP computers gone bad?

This makes working on computer like a walk in the park, But I was using a computer at 7-8 years old so I am biased.
Last edited by Infinitiguy19 on Sat Jan 08, 2011 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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goody90q45
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Post a picture (by itself) of the 25 amp fuse that blows. I may have some.

Time to unplug the seats and see what happens.


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goody90q45
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Paul Wall wrote:.....Last time I had the power window circuit breaker plugged in and I think I had the power door and seat and ADP circuit breaker plugged in too and the fuse blew. But damn the fuses are $8 at Joe and MSRP at $10 so Kelly Infiniti must have them at $12 a pop.....
Is this what's burning out?


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Infinitiguy19
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Nope Mike those are the circuit breakers this is the fuse:

Its a little rectangular 25 AMP fuse that is brown in color.

rioredstang
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Paul, stop using fuses. Go to the auto parts and buy a circuit breaker the size you need. Get (2) male blade terminals and (2) female insulated terminals (2) pieces of wire about 10" long. Put the insulated terminals on the breaker. Put the other male terminals on the other end of the wires. Now plug the two wires of the circuit breaker in place of the fuse. You can now test the circuit all day without blowing a fuse. Depending on the width of the blades sometimes you may have to file them down till they fit in the fuse terminals. You can make jumper wires that fit the small atc fuses also. They sell circuit breakers in 10A, 15A, 20A, 25A, 30A. So you can buy the sizes you need for any circuit.

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Q451990
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That is an excellent idea!

Heath

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Infinitiguy19
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That's a great Idea I can't believe I did'nt think of it before. I got the 25 AMP circuit breaker. The only question is how long does it take to trip the circuit breaker? I ask because I don't want to burn any wires, solder joints...

rioredstang
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Paul use the same size breaker that you would for a fuse. 10A fuse -- 10A breaker. A breaker of the same size does not load a circuit any more than a fuse. It will reset when it cools off. A smaller breaker will trip sooner and with less load than the correct fuse.

rioredstang
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Hey Paul what fuse is blowing. What # and is it in the interior fuse panel are in under hood power distribution? I am confused. What circuit, ie. power windows or seat? I was looking at some diagrams, but the only fuse on inside doesn't go to windows.

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Infinitiguy19
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Well I feel like a jack a**....

I looked at the service manual once again keeping a closer eye this time and found out the M70 connects to the circuit breaker for the power seats, door locks and ADP. And I bet your all like "Whats M70???" Well M70 connects to the ANTI-THEFT CONTROL UNIT.

So my plans for tomorrow are to look at M70 and see if I did anything to cause this problem. And to also unplug the drivers seat to see if that changes anything, But I just want it to be the seat or the anti-theft computer.

I take back what ever I said about the FSM because it was designed for a technician not for a person such as me. And I bet Q45tech (Dennis) took one look at this topic then looked to the FSM real quick if he does'nt have it memorized then laughed and laughed at how simple this was and how hard headed I am.

But I must learn some way.

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Infinitiguy19
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Mikes readings:
goody90q45 wrote:Measured across the two power window fuse pins, with the fuse removed.

All accessories off, doors closed.

2.8 milliamps with the key off, 4.5 milliamps with the key on. No voltmeter readings on amperage, only milliamps.

12.4v with the key off, 11.7v with the key on.
Mine:

12.4 with key off, 11.8 with key on

2.40 milliamps with key off 2.17 milliamps with key on.
rioredstang wrote:Hey Paul what fuse is blowing. What # and is it in the interior fuse panel are in under hood power distribution? I am confused. What circuit, ie. power windows or seat? I was looking at some diagrams, but the only fuse on inside doesn't go to windows.
Its the engine bay fuse and its labled "Power window", its 25 AMPs, brown and rectangular/sqaure.
rioredstang wrote:Paul, stop using fuses. Go to the auto parts and buy a circuit breaker the size you need. Get (2) male blade terminals and (2) female insulated terminals (2) pieces of wire about 10" long. Put the insulated terminals on the breaker. Put the other male terminals on the other end of the wires. Now plug the two wires of the circuit breaker in place of the fuse. You can now test the circuit all day without blowing a fuse. Depending on the width of the blades sometimes you may have to file them down till they fit in the fuse terminals. You can make jumper wires that fit the small atc fuses also. They sell circuit breakers in 10A, 15A, 20A, 25A, 30A. So you can buy the sizes you need for any circuit.


Can I put the wires in either way? I ask because the circuit breaker says 12 volts on one side and 25 AMPs on the other.

Thanks.

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The readings are close enough that they're probably within the margin of error between the two meters.

The circuit breaker should not be directional.

Heath


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