AWD or FWD - (From Reliability / Maintenance Standpoint)

[Elton Noway]

GREAT forum... glad I found it. Many of the others I've read go weeks or months with no activity.

Here's the deal... I've been perusing various forums and blogs for about three months now ... and I'm closing in on the purchase of a 2009 Rogue.
I've driven all the well competition and the Rogue kept coming out on top. But... I have been unable to find a forum thread specifically dedicated to tracking the AWD vs. FWD from a maintenance / reliability standpoint.

I've read all the arguments why one is better than the other. i.e., AWD vs. FWD... on snow, in mud, on handing, responsiveness, cornering, fuel economy, extra options with the AWD version etc. etc and all the owners coming to the defense of their decision as to why they think FWD or AWD was the best decision they ever made.

I've also read a "few" threads indicating it appears there are more CVT transmission problems in the vehicles with AWD ... and... threads where people eventually chose the FWD over the AWD because they believe the AWD models will be more prone to problems due to the additional moving parts etc.

The problem is "what they believe" may not be based on anything but speculation. Rather that reading threads on "perception" and /or "speculation"... I'd like to know if anyone is aware of any actual repair statistics on 2008/09 Rogue models indicating if one or the other appears it will be more dependable in the long run from a "maintenance" standpoint.

The reason for asking is I keep my cars in the family for a minimum of 15 years. I've had two new Hondas and two new Toyotas. All sedans. No major repairs on any of them. My latest (newest) Honda was totaled in an accident last February. I'm ready for a SUV but don't care for anything Honda or Toyota has to offer. This will be my very first Nissan. I've never had a car that's been a money pit (i.e. lemon)... and I don't want to start now. NET: Just trying to determine if one has better odds of hitting 200K miles over the other. Thanks
Elton

[Pescakl1]

Just trying to determine if one has better odds of hitting 200K miles over the other. Thanks
Elton

Probably not. Both should go the distance easily as any well made car.

My only question to you is: Do you need AWD for your use of the car?
If not, why bother paying more for something you won't use?

From what I understand, for the 2009 model, you can have the same options for the FWD model than for the AWD, as contrary as the 2008 model.

[philipa_240sx]

First off, welcome to the forums! I am glad you are enjoying your time here.

You pose a really good question. I don't really have any hard data on reliability of FWD vs. AWD models. But I can point out a few things:

1) The AWD system uses a transfer case and rear diff. The rear diff also houses an electronically controlled clutch for the AWD system. The only periodic maintenance required is fluid changes in both the transfer case and rear diff.

2) The AWD design used on the Rogue is shared with other Nissan's including the X-Trail. The main difference is the CVT transmission used on the Rogue as opposed to the conventional automatics or manual transmissions used in the X-Trail. I have not confirmed, but I believe the rear diff and AWD coupling may be identical between the Rogue and X-Trail... it's the model R145 AWD rear diff.

The X-Trail has been sold in Europe, Japan, Australia and other countries since 2001. Canada also received the X-Trail for 2 model years: '05 and '06. I have not heard of any reliability issues.


Personally, I avoided the AWD despite the fact I live in an area with a decent amount of snow during winter. I preferred the fuel economy savings of FWD over AWD and spent my money on a good set of snow tires instead.

[kerrton]

For any vehicle, FWD has less components, less things to go wrong, and less maintenance as Philip said. For me, it was a no-brainer, FWD all the way, and I even had them ship one in special for me so that I didn't have to get AWD.

I've always felt strongly that AWD is WAY overhyped, mainly because of marketing/ad campaigns by manufacturers, and sales pressure when shopping for vehicles. They want you to go for the most expensive options and so they create the misconception that AWD will help you to drive more safely on ice/snow and that you NEED it - I concede that it does have some minor benefits in some situations such as deep snow and helping you get "unstuck", and possibly when cornering but I still think it is over-emphasized. AWD does nothing to help you stop quicker. Like Philip said, if you want safe performance on snow and ice, the best thing you can do is save your money, buy a FWD vehicle and purchase a good set of snow tires. The vast majority of cars don't even have this as an option, and of course they're safe to drive. If you're buying a regular car without AWD option, the salesperson isn't going to tell you "this car is unsafe", but if you look at an SUV/crossover, he'll tell you that AWD is much safer and definately the way to go - this is not logical.

Sorry, I got a little off-topic. Regarding AWD reliability and maintenance, I wouldn't worry about it. Based on the number of these vehicles produced and the engineering that has gone into the AWD system, I'm sure it wont' give you any problems. Most of the CVT problems were with 08 models and they were initial failures, occurring very soon after purchase. If you get past that initital early window of time, then you should be good for the 15 years that you intend to keep the vehicle. I base this on all manufacturers part failure curve, which shows that there are always relatively high intital failures, then after year 1 and 2 these drop way down.


Modified by kerrton at 2:21 PM 5/4/2009

[Elton Noway]

Wow... I'd like to thank both Pescakl1 and philipa_240sx of the timely replies and insight. (EDIT: Update: Also thanks to kerrton for his added insight... evidently squeeked in between me typing my reply and hitting the save button)

Both of you made a good point in the arena of "Do I really need it?". The answer to that question is "No". I leave in the southeast US. In the last 15 years we've only had snow twice that might have required snow tires or 4WD and I got around fine in my FWD Honda.

As to the AWD impact on gas mileage... while its true the extra mile per gallon will add up over the years, I felt the savings (approx $400/year) seemed like it might be a good trade off... providing the AWD didn't increase my risk factor for additional time in the repair shop. I've been leaning towards the FWD only because of my own knowledge and history with automobiles. I'm a semi-retired shade tree mechanic... have pulled and overhauled plenty of engines and have done several restorations. Heck I even did my own transmission overhauls. But, over the years have grown to hate working on cars. Besides, keeping up with the computers and the required diagnostic equipment has become cost prohibitive. So... with the Rouge I'll now be at the mercy of the mechanic who tells me;
"We got your tires rotated and we topped off all the fluid levels but I'm afraid the computer identified your Waffleator is pulling high resistance levels. It will be $520 to replace it today. If you don't replace it today be aware it could cause unnecessary wear on the Zinger valve and then you're looking at a $1200 repair!" It's can be pure B.S. but unless you have a mechanic you trust 100%... that's the reality of the situation.

That said... I'll admit I've been unable to find any definitive proof, statistics or complaints regarding known trouble spots or issues with the AWD. It appears to be solid design. However... my knowledge of cars over the years, along with the transfer case and electronically controlled clutch in the AWD model (as reiterated by philipa_240sx)... have been a major part of my hesitation. In the old days (a couple decades ago) Consumer Reports magazine warned people to avoid the new fangled options like power windows and power seats because it was just another item that could malfunction and be expensive to repair. (i.e., the more features you add... the more features there are to malfunction) Unfortunately cars today are becoming so complex the law of averages is working against us. In other words we should expect unwelcome malfunctions from time to time... but... I prefer to keep the maintenance to a minimum whenever possible.

NET: It appears I'll be applying the savings gained with the FWD version towards the cost of the premium package.


Modified by Elton Noway at 7:39 PM 5/4/2009

[Mr_Munson]

I just bought the S model in AWD today, without hesitation. While having AWD means that, technically speaking, you have more parts to break, it isn't likely you'll have problems specific to the AWD system for a very long time (unless you try to drive at high revs through deep sand just for fun). I live in the midwest, and while I have only had need for 4WD one time in my life, I am a firm believer in AWD for winter driving. I test drove both FWD and AWD models, and took each of them through some pretty sharp turns at speed, and the AWD was noticeably more stable. But it comes down to what you feel comfortable with. If you believe there is a possibility that the AWD system could eventually give you problems, then you may never feel totally confident owning the AWD, even if it never does give you any trouble.

[philipa_240sx]

Every person will have a different comfort level and needs. Ultimately it's what you as the buyer wants.

Personally...

I have driven many vehicles and I prefer less complexity. I focus on the things that make the biggest improvement.. ie. useful features, comfort, cargo capacity, tires, etc. The AWD option was just too expensive an option to justify... even from a so called 'safety' perspective. I have only ever owned one 4WD vehicle... a Nissan Pathfinder. I can honestly say I prefer to drive a lighter FWD vehicle (in this case about 800lbs lighter) with a set of all season tires for summer and snow tires for winter. I can stop faster, turn with more control, and perform emergency maneuvers that my Pathfinder would never be able to do. And I only gave up a bit of interior room... but I also get much better fuel economy.

[10sion]

Sorry for digging up such an Ancient thread, but I wanted to thank everyone for sharing their experience and opinions. I just purchased a 2012 Rogue SL FWD. I did so doubting myself until just after reading these posts. I've read other reviews and opinions on other sites but this one was the most convincing.

I do live in a state where there is plenty of snow, but AWD is not going to change the way I drive. I see huge 4WD trucks in the ditch all the time and its because they trust in the vehicle to keep them safe at normal and even high speeds in bad conditions. I prefer to drive a little slower/safer and with proper tires than assume that an AWD system will make the all the difference. As mentioned for the 2008/2009 model year difference I assume Nissan stuck with allowing all the options on the varying trim levels. I managed to get everything I wanted in the FWD model and then some. Intelligent key, bluetooth, ipod, bose, and on and on. The MPG rating really had me questioning was 1-2 mpg worth not having AWD and how accurate is that rating anyway? Well now that i've had my rogue for a couple of days and considering what the potential extra maintenance and repair costs on the AWD makes me feel a lot better about my FWD choice.

Thanks again

[kerrton]

I'm glad our forum was useful to you 10sion! And by the way, welcome to the NICO Club Rogue Forum!

I think you've really captured the issue well with your post, there's nothing wrong with getting an AWD Rogue but there are some real advantages to the FWD, in the short term the lower price is the most enticing. My FWD 2008 Rogue has been running great for 4 years and I've done no maintenance or repairs other than oil changes, I flushed the coolant once and switched to the long life coolant, and I occaisionally have the brake calipers serviced to ensure long life but that's it. Years down the road the AWD Rogue will give you a better re-sale or trade-in value, but I've been checking on this and the price difference on the used Rogues is not much more than the difference you see on the new ones between the FWD and AWD system, around the $2500 to $3000 dollar range, so basically call it a tie.

Enjoy your new Rogue and feel free to visit here often!

[casperfun]

AWD challenge - Demonstration

[kerrton]

Goofy video, I'm not sure those guys know anything about cars.....they're testing the performance of these two cars in deep snow and ice and they don't even have snow tires, not smart!

[psfod3]

I have a 08 with 104,000 miles. I changed the cvt fluid at 80,000 miles even though the computer did not require it. The dealer usally always tells me to change fluid, belts, filters etc all the time usally way before stated service but they have never told me to change the transfer case or rear diff oil. I do not tow with it and do mainly highway miles. I dont even think they ever even check it on service. The dealership is excellent and the service department is great. I have had many awd suvs and have never changed the rear diff for the life of the car. I dont even see a change listed in the maintance book for normal driving am I missing a important maintance item?

[ImStricken]

they have never told me to change the transfer case or rear diff oil. I do not tow with it and do mainly highway miles. I dont even think they ever even check it on service. I have had many awd suvs and have never changed the rear diff for the life of the car. I dont even see a change listed in the maintance book for normal driving am I missing a important maintance item?

i dont care what that silly service schedule states: all fluids should be changed. The most important part is to remove the shavings that accumulate on the magnetic drain plug. (you cant remove the drain plug without draining the fluid)



You dont want that metallic grit continually circulating and adding to the friction and shaving more metal.(try washing your hands with a grit agent like pumice in the soap EVERYDAY for 5years)
Plus there is no fluid in the world that is guaranteed for life - without some form of molecular breakdown from heat, age, moisture, etc. nothing is forever and its best to CHANGE THE DIFFERENTIAL & TRANSFER-CASE FLUID EVERY 30,000 - 60,000 MILES(depending on driving conditions, temps, etc)


I did a write-up for those who think they can handle this at home on both jobs:.
diy-rear-differential-fluid-change-t554006.html
&
diy-nissan-rogue-transfer-case-fluid-change-t554009.html

[Rogue One]

Goofy video, I'm not sure those guys know anything about cars.....they're testing the performance of these two cars in deep snow and ice and they don't even have snow tires, not smart!

[sprocket]

I've seen those videos before and while they're somewhat interesting, I think real world experience and feel is more relevant.

I've driven different Rogues from the 2008MY all the way up to a 2012MY (current vehicle) thanks to yearly leases. I opted for AWD from 2008 - 2011 to handle the winter months in Michigan but got a FWD for 2012 because of a deal I couldn't pass up.

Fuel economy:
FWD will get you better fuel economy by approx 1-2mpg.

Driving characteristics:
AWD is more planted, especially when handling corners and bends and when starting off from a stop (either going straight or turning on to a road). FWD behaves like all FWD's I've driven where the front end feels a little light and floaty when pushed. It is to be expexted when you're accelerating with the drive wheels while trying to provide steering input.
If you are a driving enthusiast, get an AWD

Winter handling:
First off, the Rogue will perform better than most typical cars regardless of FWD/AWD thanks to the more aggressive tire pattern on crossover/SUV tires vs normal passenger tires. However, stock tires pale in comparison to dedicated winter tires.

AWD helps with the "going".
Dedicated winter tires help with both the "going" and the "stopping".

That said, you can still get stuck. Our AWD system, while fairly simple and quite effective, is not the most advanced. It doesn't have torque vectoring so it cannot vary from side to side, just from front to back.


I think that a FWD would best suit the non-enthusiast, the fuel economy chaser, the non-winter region driver while the AWD would be for the enthusiast or the winter region driver.

I wouldn't worry about the reliability. It's a simple, proven system with just one electronically-actuated clutch in the rear. The system's been used in various vehicles like the X-Trail, Murano, Roque, Qashqai, etc going back many years (and even previous generations), likely improved over the years.

My opinion, hope it helps.

[takeshi]

I'd like to know if anyone is aware of any actual repair statistics on 2008/09 Rogue models indicating if one or the other appears it will be more dependable in the long run from a "maintenance" standpoint.

I recently ran across a site that tracks repairs by actual owners of vehicles but I don't recall the site. I can give you actual repair statistics on our 08 AWD. Granted, it's only one data point and in no way should be used to extrapolate any trends. We have had no issues so far at 60K. However, note that, as they say with investing, past performance is not necessarily indicative of future performance -- particularly when future performance means 15 years/200K of ownership.

there's nothing wrong with getting an AWD Rogue but there are some real advantages to the FWD

There are "real" advantages on both sides. Every option in life comes with pros and cons. The advantages that one prefers may swing that person to one side or the other (and/or the disadvantages of one option may make one prefer the alternative).

[kerrton]

TrueDelta.com collects real owner statisics, compiles and provides summary reports and comparisions of vehicle reliability as well as fuel efficiency. It's a great resource, and once you've identified the major trends you're looking for, you can read the detailed repair histories of individuals and do head-to-head vehicle comparisons.

Overall the 2008-2011 Rogue is well above average reliability, and I have not noted any issues with the AWD components by scanning the individual repair histories. However we're still only 4 years in to this model history, what will happen in 10-15 years is anybody's guess, and for me I likely won't be keeping my Rogue much longer than 7-8 years but we'll see!!