AWD 240sx RBxxDET(T) swap!

Discuss the RB20, RB25 and RB26 series engines.
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GTRs13
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Car: 89' S13 Coupe AWD RB20DET

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Restored to all it's former......uh glory I guess. Have to love google cache.

There is good news!

Now through much research pertaining to this project I have come across several points regarding the AWD RBxxDET(T) into a 240 Swap.

Myths

1."Don't even think about it. How big is your bank account? I hope you are a master fabricator."

Counter point:- This swap is almost Bolt-in! Its unbelievable to me how people can realize the ability of swapping the RB25DET into a 240, yet disregard that the AWD conversion can be done at all, let alone fairly easily with minimal metal skill. Drilling holes and minor MIG welding is all thats required, which pretty much anyone can do. And based on your resourcefulness, the swap does *NOT cost $15,000 on top of your car to perform.

2."You have to graft the skyline front onto the 240, that's really hard."

Counter point:- Now when a car manufacturers, especially Japanese ones, make their line of cars for a particular generation, there is usually a decent deal of variety of types of vehicles. From coupes to sedans to SUV types. However if you notice, since the swapping insurgency of the last decade, many parts from these seemingly different cars actually interchange with each other quite a bit. This isn't more true for Nissan's "Parts Bin engineering style" as put by another member.

The generation skyline directly co-insides with that generation's 240. I.E. GTR32 = S13. GTR33 = S14, and GTR34 = S15. Although they are all pretty much the same. Think about it. When you Mass-produce cars, why bother loosing money independently designing these cars separately, when you can base your models off of "Platforms" and make two or three cars out of one canvas so to speak.

Exhibit A:This is a stock 240SX Crossmember Vs a RWD R33 GTS-S Crossmember.Used for RB25DET swaps, it literally bolts right up.



Exhibit B:Here we have an empty 240sx engine bay, with some gnarly inner fender work I might add!

Notice you have a crossmember, and separate lower tension rod adapters.



Exhibit C:This is a Z32 300zx Front suspension.Notice how its a RWD car with GTR type front multi-link!?:good:



Exhibit D:Now here is the GTR sub frame again. Notice how it integrates the tension rod adapters right into a perimeter frame-type.

The next one is the underneath of the subframe. It shows the four bolt flange style of ball-joints for the LCA or otherwise known as the "Transverse link."

Finally the Full-race R14 and how its has a GTR32 Subframe.







3."Unless you know Japanese, good luck getting the 4WD (ATTESSA) to wire up.

Counterpoint:- To be perfectly honest most of those willing to do this swap, will probably end up buying a GTR32 Front Clip. And that's fine. So am I. The GTR32 Factory 899 page service manual is available free online as well, in engrish.

Go anywhere on the internet, especially in skylines Downunder or GTR UK. Ask them if having a factory R32-spec ATTESSA system is worth a damn at all, and they will tell you no, over and over. They fix the problem with electronic controllers, which sort of "Trick" the G-sensors into giving up much more front wheel torque, kinda like your SAFC "Tricks" the ECU into thinking there is less Air.

The reality of the R32 system is that the processing resolution is that of an Nintendo Entertainment System. Its too-little, too-late and spin-inducing oversteer becomes evident under hard driving.

Hydraulic pressure of 288psi is required to fully engage the transfer case into a 50/50 torque split. Veilside makes a Hydraulic Torque Controller, I belive GRID does as well, so you know they work. Fixed front wheel torque, or none at all. Pretty simple to adapt.

FACTS

1.Pretty much all Nissan parts interchange with each other, making this an OEM oriented swap process, not "custom" as so many people claim. The most important piece of the swap, the subframe, bolts in sans drilling two additional holes.

2.RB20DET or RB26DETT can be used. ECU wiring is pretty much the same excpt the GTR has low-impedance injectors and wiring in the resistor box is involved. No sweat.

RB20 AWD has a 4.375 ratio front and rear, and RB26 has 4.111. So make sure you match front and rear diffs or your trans will explode!

3.Although the subframe bolts up to a 240 relatively easy, the GTR's unique multi-link suspension does not. You are going to have to get creative on this. Either (This is where the MIG comes in) Weld in the GTR strut towers like this:





OR

-Make an upper-link-to-McPearson Adapter like these guys:





Ow. My brain hurts...:nosleep:


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krayton
Posts: 1090
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2003 11:10 am

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love it, but not really

why do i see more kids now (without the ability to change oil in a car) wanting to do this swap

but thats cool, that it is not "that hard"

once everyone starts going ls1 , then i can pick up a cheap gtr clip

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cdorhout
Posts: 344
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:15 am
Car: RB30DET with VCT -- SOLD!!!!
Next project TBD

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Do you have a driving AWD RB20 S13? Or are you just in the planning stage? Great research btw!

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Joe
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you consider welding in strut towers "minimal fabrication?"


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Nissan2367
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Wow nice writeup! But it still looks hard as hell to me! Once you complete an all wheel drive swap and still say its easy then maybe i would consider it!

240cp
Posts: 306
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2007 6:03 pm
Car: 95 240sx

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You say rb20 and 26 both will work, whats the deal with the 25? Wont the diff/oil pan from a 26 bolt up to a 25? I mean doesnt everyone that swaps in a 26 use a modified 25 oil pan anyways right????

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StricNyne
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interesting research but i am in no hurry to try modifying my strut towers, nor do i want to use a ziptie instead, i do think research like this is productive to the rb community, maybe someone can use the info and fab something up

RussianKid
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Car: 1992 240sx hatch
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wouldn't it be cheaper and faster just to spend 10k and get a complete 32 GTR and just drive that around???

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GTRs13
Posts: 95
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Car: 89' S13 Coupe AWD RB20DET

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Restored

Hey guys, thanks for your "support". Let me get to the point. I worked at F1dyno in Portland for a couple years.

Built a few Hondas, built a few Diamond Stars. They were all pretty fun, especially the AWD turbo cars.

But at the end of the day they are FWD-based cars, and as most people know, FWD sucks bawls.

So, anyways heres the "canvas"

















Its got a blown ka24e, and an auto trans. Perfect for an RB swap!

I should be getting the R32GTR subframe today, actually.

After all my research, I am not too sure why people are not doings this more often. From what I understand there are four of these swaps publically.

1.Full-Race r142."Truckadsjoe" from the Northwest Nissans forum3.Another NN car4. UP Garage in Washington State have one with Full working ATTESSA

It all seems to be boiling down to two major things to get the swap done.

1.For an s13, the R32GTR front subframe, suspension, knuckles, and brakes.For s14, its R33GTR.

2. Hydraulic actuation to get the transfer case to engage. HICAS pump outlet to a valve. Then up to 70psi to the transfer case to get a 50/50 lock, and anywhere in between.

I will start to finish this car, AND get full documentation so others can perform it as well.

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GTRs13
Posts: 95
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Car: 89' S13 Coupe AWD RB20DET

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Restored

Heres the "Key"

















As far as the front setup, I havent decided yet. Its either GTR front Multi-link or the upper-link-to-Strut-type adapter I'm developing.

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GTRs13
Posts: 95
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Car: 89' S13 Coupe AWD RB20DET

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Restored

Let me answer a few questions:

Q:Why not buy a skyline?

A: I'm an ex DSM'er, which means I'm broke. Plus this is more fun.

Q:You think welding strut towers is easy?

A:Yes, I am a welder by trade. So yeah I do. Besides, depending on what front setup I go with, you might not have to weld.

And its not the whole strut tower, just the tops.

There are 240's out there that have their towers falling off anyways. :Shrug:

Also, owning Mitsubishis for so long kinda forces learning how to do everything. Because as I stated before I'm cheap, and I won't let anyone touch my car.

And of course, some RB20DET AWD goodness!














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GTRs13
Posts: 95
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:46 am
Car: 89' S13 Coupe AWD RB20DET

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240cp, there are Two types of RB : RWD blocks(RB20/25), and AWD (RB20/26 ATTESSA) blocks.

The Stagea Wagon had an RB25DET AWD, but that block is wider as well.

When you swap an RB25 oil pan on an RB26 some bolts don't line up.

I don't like the idea of cutting corners on something as essential to an RB as the oil system, so to me this swap makes more sense.

Add the fact I get snow 9 months out of the year, and I live on the side of a mountain AWD makes even more sense.

Again I am not really looking for brownie points or whatever. All i want to do is complete the swap in a clean, OEM fashion, and document what trails I encounter for the next guy to do.

Updates soon.

Modified by GTRs13 at 5:32 AM 4/1/2009
Modified by GTRs13 at 9:20 AM 4/1/2009

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USMCgetsome
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Car: OWN S13.5 RB25DET/2003 G35
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I enjoyed your research! Now that you have your rb20det I am anxious to see you succeed! Please post up all progress as you go. Were here to help on your adventure.

We all need to help this niconaut for our communities growth!

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Carl H
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Car: 1995 240SX SE RB30DET

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ah the gts-4 rb20...awesome.

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Nissan2367
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I stand corrected... I thought you were just doing the research and didnt do any of the work yet... looks like you haev a start. KEEP US POSTED! I would love to maybe do this some day with a rb26 in a s13!

240cp
Posts: 306
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2007 6:03 pm
Car: 95 240sx

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GTRs13 wrote:240cp, there are Two types of RB : RWD blocks, and AWD (ATTESSA) blocks.

When you swap an RB25 oil pan on an RB26 some bolts don't line up.

I don't like the idea of cutting corners on something as essential to an RB as the oil system, so to me this swap makes more sence.

Add the fact I get snow 9 months out of the year, and I live on the side of a mountain AWD makes even more sense.

Again I am not really looking for brownie points or whatever. All i want to do is complete the swap in a clean, OEM fashion, and document what trails I encounter for the next guy to do.

Updates soon.
That a big 10/4 good buddy . One more ? that tranny looks a whole lot like the one i have in my garage. Is rb20awd tranny the same as gtr, gts-s, and all well all the awd rb tranny's? Sorry to cluter the thread with such noobish ?'s. But i though i might as well ask while i have you.

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HxC_Nismo
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Car: 98' Nissan 240sx SE R33 RB26DET, 07' Nissan Titan SE, 05' Toyota Corolla
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god dammit i just scrapped my r33 gtr crossmember and used internals out of my awd tranny. i overlooked everything you just posted, and if i would of seen this back when i was still doing my swap i would of did the awd to mine. but im starting to consider to go awd when i build my motor.

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GTRs13
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Car: 89' S13 Coupe AWD RB20DET

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All is not lost! BTW your car is Phucking hot!^^^

I will do RB26 later, but I want to build one, so I can get the oil problems out of the way and drive it to its potential!

No problem on the "noob" questions. I just got out of DSM's so I am a noob of sorts as well.

I believe between the RWD-only GTS-T and the AWD GTR/GTS4 trans share internals of sorts, but obviously the AWD has a transfer case sticking out of it.

The GTR and GTS/4 Drivetrains are identical with the exception of gear ratios

GTR=4.111 GTS4= 4.375


Modified by GTRs13 at 7:53 AM 4/8/2009

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Carl H
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Car: 1995 240SX SE RB30DET

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awd boxes are all the same except for the diff in the oilpan...they are different.I'd rock out the gts-4 diff in both front and rear of the car for massive acceleration increase over the gtr 3.90.

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WhatsADSM
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Car: 1998 240sx

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Definitely interesting. If most of us swapped we would have to find the trans and the rear end (or at least buy the right final drive). Keep us posted on your progress!

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rbsileighty
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Car: 92 S13 Hatch w/ RB20 & 05 Audi S4 Avant 6MT

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GTRs13 wrote:Let me answer a few questions:

Q:Why not buy a skyline?

A: I'm an ex DSM'er, which means I'm broke. Plus this is more fun.

Q:You think welding strut towers is easy?

A:Yes, I am a welder by trade. So yeah I do. Besides, depending on what front setup I go with, you might not have to weld.

And its not the whole strut tower, just the tops.

There are 240's out there that have their towers falling off anyways. :Shrug:

Also, owning Mitsubishis for so long kinda forces learning how to do everything. Because as I stated before I'm cheap, and I won't let anyone touch my car.

Modified by GTRs13 at 4:53 PM 3/31/2009
I can appreciate not wanting to go with "just buying a skyline"... just be careful with the alignment/geometry and "robustness" (for lack of better words) of your suspension... very important due to the loads these parts see under cornering and the potential to ruin the handling if the geometry is incorrect... I'm sure you've looked into it but just want to make sure everyone considers some of the less glamorous points of what needs to be considered for this swap. I've been planning mine (awd conv) for 3 years now (held up by remodeling my house myself and wanting to complete my RB20 ideas first)... not saying you need to take that long but just want everyone to be careful and not "just make it work"

I'm 99.9% sure some welding will be involved in the front conversion part to make this work properly... just don't forget component structure and system geometry when developing your setup

Congrats on the progress and I look forward to seeing the results!
Modified by rbsileighty at 2:24 PM 4/1/2009

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GTRs13
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Car: 89' S13 Coupe AWD RB20DET

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These are good points, and people should take head.

However personally, I think I am going with the GTR Front multi-link.

This will effectively give me GTR32 Geometry.

I don't plan on re-inventing the wheel here.

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virus77
Posts: 1775
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Car: 95 S14, 71 240z, 97 e320

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Looks like you are off to a start, I threw around the idea of dropping in a gtr motor back when I had an S14 but it never happened. Good luck to you sir! Ill be watching lol

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GTRs13
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Car: 89' S13 Coupe AWD RB20DET

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Thanks.

Damn! Whats with all the ridiculously clean cars you guys have!?

IF there was a Z in Maine, it would probably look like this:


240cp
Posts: 306
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Car: 95 240sx

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Is the awd rb20 front diff 4.08 like the 240 lsd diif?

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GTRs13
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Car: 89' S13 Coupe AWD RB20DET

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Research indicates that:

Front diff ratios of AWD RB's

RB20DET GTS4 = 4.375

RB25DET Stagea = 4.08

RB26DETT GTR = 4.111
Modified by GTRs13 at 7:54 AM 4/8/2009

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Joe
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so are you going to get a matching rear end?

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GTRs13
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Car: 89' S13 Coupe AWD RB20DET

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Yeah, and it kinda worked out good for me.

The guy that sold me my engine, has a GTS4 R32.

He swapped me the GTR front Diff/oilpan.

Since my car in an automatic, open-diff pig, bolting up the GTR rear is like two upgrades in one, really.

Plus they only fetch a few hundred bucks right now, so the price is right!

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GTRs13
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Car: 89' S13 Coupe AWD RB20DET

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Also wanted to show there is a father/son team that already did the swap the "bolt-in" way.

They used the Upper ball-joint - to - Strut adapter here:

http://picasaweb.google.com/tr...link#

And here is a small test drive. Looks pretty good. Look at their other videos for more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaLvbKPz3kM
Modified by GTRs13 at 5:52 PM 4/2/2009

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WhatsADSM
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GTRs13 wrote:Also wanted to show there is a father/son team that already did the swap the "bolt-in" way.

They used the Upper ball-joint - to - Strut adapter here:

http://picasaweb.google.com/tr...link#

And here is a small test drive. Looks pretty good. Look at their other videos for more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaLvbKPz3kM
The first link you put up is bad, and I cant see the second cause I am at work.

But if it is the same person I think you are talking about they posted about it in here:zer...pdate


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