EDIT: Problem fixed......Revolution Sensor. Read through the thread.

I’ve been having a problem in the 94Q where the transmission randomly doesn’t want to shift out of first gear. This has been occurring about every 2nd or 3rd drive. Under normal conditions the tranny shifts smoothly through all gears whether driving around town or at WOT. I’ve had the occasional TRANSMISSION MALFUNCTION warning since buying this Q 3 ½ years ago but the warning has gotten much more frequent since driving up and over the Tioga Pass (10,000 ft. elevation) in Yosemite in 3rd gear this summer (forgot that I’d downshifted on a steep descent 40 miles prior).

Maintenance/symptom history:>163k miles on engine. Service records made no mention of transmission maintenance history. No external tranny cooler installed.> Tranny flush, filter change and replace dino ATF with synthetic two years and 20k miles ago. External filter not changed. > Prior to switch to synthetic had hard shifts in all gears and slipping from 3rd>4th gear. A few drain/fill cycles with Lucas Transmission Treatment solved these issues. (I’m thick-skinned. Flame me.)> Self-diagnosis results: Code 1- (Turbine) revolution sensor is short-circuited or disconnected.> Fluid was brownish (burned?) after Yosemite trip. Have drained and refilled (3 ½ quarts) three times since and it is now red. No ATF additives yet.> No-shift occurs mostly after sitting at a stop light for a couple of minutes or in heavy stop and go traffic. > No-shift cleared by pulling over, stopping engine, count to two, restarting. Viola!- everything back to normal.> Replaced TCU with same P/N about 2 months ago. No change.

I did a lot of searching of old threads today and it looks like replacing the Turbine Revolution Sensor might be my next step. I have a few questions:> I’d like to order the correct part from IOS. If you’ve purchased this sensor what is the P/N and approximate cost? About how many hours for a shop to replace? My shop quoted one hour but I think they meant the speed sensor.> What is the difference between the revolution sensor and the speed sensor and what are their functions?> Do my no-shift symptoms sound typical to what a failing turbine revolution sensor would cause? Anything I’m missing?

Thanks in advance for your help.
Modified by goody94q45 at 7:00 AM 8/29/2009

No idea Mike on the transmission, but my guess is its on its way out.

Part number: 3193551X60 MSRP: $179.23 IOS Price(3/23/09): $134.42 Turbine speed 1993 - 1994

I would say no more than 3-4 Hours to replace it, All Data does'nt say anything about the turbine sensor.

I have a transmission out of the car and its it right at the top of the it right before the bell housing.

If you need any pictures let me know.

For a bigger picture go here: http://picasaweb.google.com/lh...tlink



For a bigger picture go here: http://picasaweb.google.com/lh...tlink

goody94q45 wrote:> Self-diagnosis results: Code 1- (Turbine) revolution sensor is short-circuited or disconnected.> What is the difference between the revolution sensor and the speed sensor and what are their functions?> Do my no-shift symptoms sound typical to what a failing turbine revolution sensor would cause? Anything I’m missing?

Actually, result "1" is a revolution sensor and not the turbine revolution sensor. "A" is the turbine revolution sensor. They're different sensors. Check out farfetched's posts in this thread:zerothread/119211

EDIT: This diagram shows both nicely

If your not seeing any issues with your PS getting really stiff or the speedo dropping off, i highly doubt your speed sensor is at fault. I dont think ive heard of speed sensors failing?

I suppose the first step would be to try and check the revolution sensor before you replace it... AT-81. You could probably trace the wires back and check them at the TCU if you dont want to get under the car. I prefer doing that too because you really care what the TCU sees.

Diagnostic procedure 8 is a good place to start too.. I would suspect TPS or revolution sensor based on reading thru it briefly.

goody94q45 wrote:Anything I’m missing?

By flush, did you mean mechanical exchange or chemical flush followed by mechanical exchange or....?

Going uphill in 3rd is wise, but climbing passes or just driving in the mountains is not so wise without an auxiliary ATF cooler.

So you drained and refilled with some kind of sythtetic ATF? Then Lucas? Then Yosemite, then drain and refill now brown fluid 3 times? Now fluid is red?

Definitely a different maintenance routine.

Turbine sensor usually fails by leaking which is detectable by ATF running down the harness to the connector on the bottom of hte driver's side.

I am thinking though with your witches brew, better start saving for OEM replacement from Joe as it sounds cooked, at least. Depends how much time you want to waste poking around with a futzed one, I guess.

MinisterofDOOM wrote:Actually, result "1" is a revolution sensor and not the turbine revolution sensor. "A" is the turbine revolution sensor. They're different sensors. Check out farfetched's posts in this thread:zerothread/119211

Thanks for clarifying. I was confusing the two parts. I went back and reread and it's starting to make sense.

elwesso wrote:If your not seeing any issues with your PS getting really stiff or the speedo dropping off, i highly doubt your speed sensor is at fault. I dont think ive heard of speed sensors failing?

I was confused. It's not the speed sensor. I meant to ask revolution sensor versus turbine revolution sensor. I went back to the FSM and it looks like there's a couple more diagnostics to pinpoint the cause.

maxnix wrote:By flush, did you mean mechanical exchange or chemical flush followed by mechanical exchange or....?

So you drained and refilled with some kind of sythtetic ATF? Then Lucas? Then Yosemite, then drain and refill now brown fluid 3 times? Now fluid is red?.....Definitely a different maintenance routine.......

At purchase about 4 years ago the tranny shifted rough and slipped in the higher gears. Fluid was good but not new. A few drain and fills and a couple of Lucas treatments cleared up most of the problems. At that point I had the shop do a chemical flush and fluid replacement switching over to synthetic. Since that time I have not used any fluid additives.

After the Yosemite drive in 3rd gear (not intentional, I was distracted by the scenery) the fluid color definately changed. Since then (June 08) I've done a tranny drain and fill with each oil change, 3 or 4 times.

maxnix wrote:.....Turbine sensor usually fails by leaking which is detectable by ATF running down the harness to the connector on the bottom of the driver's side......

I do have leakage onto the 4 harness connectors under the tranny and I've got to get under the car to check some voltages anyway so I think I'll start by cleaning the connectors and doing some more diagnosis with the VOM.

maxnix wrote:.....I am thinking though with your witches brew, better start saving for OEM replacement from Joe as it sounds cooked, at least. Depends how much time you want to waste poking around with a futzed one, I guess.

We have sunshine, happy cows and great cheese here in California but the last time I checked the money tree in my backyard was still bare. The tranny shifts perfect 99% of the time so I'm not quite ready to throw in the towel and spend $3,000+ on a new tranny (unless I win the lotto).

Paul Wall wrote:No idea Mike on the transmission, but my guess is its on its way out.....

Please don't kick me while I'm down. That tranny should outlive me.

While your eating some great cheese,follow some of them happy cows around and gather some fertalizers to put under your tree,with all the sunshine.....that tree will start producing money again.

Update on the tranny. About a month ago I cleaned the 4 tranny connectors on the underside, drained and refilled with 3 1/2 qts of Mobil 1 ATF, and poured in a bottle of Lubeguard Black (LG Red for regular ATF). There was no immediate change, the no-shift problem was occuring on almost every drive and the TRANSMISSION MALFUNCTION WARNING was lighting up on almost every start up.

About 2 weeks ago I started up and the display said OK. I ran a bunch of errands and OK came up every time and the tranny was shifting better than ever. I checked the Tranny codes and there were none and I haven't had an issue in the last two weeks.

I talked to a coworker/auto buff who thinks that the shift solenoids have been gummed up since purchase and even though I managed to clean up the 2-3 and 3-4 solenoids with fluid changes and Lucas the 1-2 was still a bit plugged (and always did shift a little hard). The drive through Yosemite in 3rd gear cooked the fluid and the few months after that when I barely drove it allowed a fresh layer of varnish to coat the tranny internals and solenoids and continue to set off the revolution sensor code and cause worse shifting problems.

The Lubeguard took a couple of weeks to work but the results are great. Brian and Tech have recommended it many times as a last resort and this was a last resort. In the meantime the 94Q is my daily driver to make sure that I give the Lubeguard time to do it's job. Thanks for your help guys. I'm driving on cloud 9 again.
Modified by goody94q45 at 5:38 AM 4/29/2009

You must be careful and sensitive to use Lubguard as a little bit can go a long way in CHANGING the overall Stick SLIP curve of ATF. Stick slip is the graph of different clutches vs the speed difference between them as the clutches are disengaged and engaged.

Why I alway recommend after a 100% ATF change and now sparkling clean ATF that you use 1/2 a bottle and wait a few weeks before adding the remainder .................... often you find a full bottle is too much.

You must be engineering sensitive to HOW a brand new tranny shifts otherwise you can make a RE4R03A too sloppy.................there is a precise sweet spot.

If you over do it with Lubguard you can drain the pan twice and get the concentration down. Better to not waste the product initially and then add the other half a year later. Then start over with new ATF every 2-3 years.

goody94q45 wrote:1.) About a month ago I cleaned the 4 tranny connectors on the underside, drained and refilled with 3 1/2 qts of Mobil 1 ATF, and poured in a bottle of Lube Guard Black (LG Red for regular ATF).

2.) I talked to a coworker/auto buff who thinks that the shift solenoids have been gummed up since purchase and even though I managed to clean up the 2-3 and 3-4 solenoids with fluid changes and Lucas ....

3.) The drive through Yosemite in 3rd gear cooked the fluid ....

1.) Let me quote TexasOil’s erudite post on this subject:

Lube Guard red vs. black

Red is synthetic sperm oil (can't kill whales anymore) and is used to smooth out the final engagement shock (lock-up.) It is a friction modified that lowers the coefficient of static friction relative to the dynamic friction. Dynamic is when the clutch faces are slipping past each other--static is when they are stationary.

Black Lube Guard increases static friction and dynamic friction coefficients, raising the locked-up torque handling capacity of the clutch unit (results in 'firmer' feeling shifts)

The Q45 TCU/ECU backs off on torque during the shift to give smooth shifts. For a given tranny condition/temp/oil condition, one can 'tune' the fluid characteristics somewhat. Factory settings are a compromise between smoothness, durability, and performance.

Ideally you would get a continuous flow of driveshaft torque under all throttle and speed conditions, with no noticeable jerk or sag. Hard to achieve in this world.

You want to be careful with harsh shifts--they stress the metal parts and clutch faces (and drive line parts) more than intended. This is not to say they will fail (right away), but incremental wear/damage is unavoidable with hard shifts.

Regarding Lube Guard. (No comment on Nissan D fluid since I am ignorant of the specific characteristics) I AM knowledgeable on DEXRON (all previous and present versions) and the 'type F' fluids.

Q45's through version III for certain were designed for the friction characteristics of DEXRON. This fluid had friction modifiers that shallow the slope of the torque vs slip curve as the clutches approach 'lock-up'. AND these fluids are suitable for those cars that ALLOW continuous slip of the 'lock-up' torque converter to smooth things out.

Some transmissions are designed for different fluids, ones that have either no drop in torque transfer as slip goes to zero, or even fluids that have HIGHER torque transmission ability as slip drops to zero. This characteristic is called HIGH STATIC FRICTION. Dexron fluids have HIGH DYNAMIC FRICTION.

If you put a 'high static' fluid in a transmission designed for 'high dynamic' fluid, you will significantly increase clutch lock-up shock--even to the point of shearing the metal driving lugs on the clutch plates. You may even feel a 'firmer shift', but that is easily confused and misnamed. You can also get a 'firmer [faster] shift with higher viscosity fluid or increased oil pressure in the transmission operating circuit. 'Firmer shift' and 'clutch lock-up shock' are different processes and not necessarily coincident. You can have 'soft shifts' caused by worn clutches, leaking clutch pack seals, low oil pressure, and STILL have 'lock-up shock.' You can have fast, firm shifts and still have smooth , no jerk clutch lock-up.

I recommend AGAINST adding Lube Guard BLACK to Q45 transmissions in an attempt to get 'firmer shifts'. All you are doing is increasing the momentary torque loading( lock-up shock) on the metal parts in the tranny and can brake some real expensive parts. This transmission IS NOT designed for harsh shifts and WILL break.

IF your Q45 tranny has slow, lazy shifts at moderate and more throttle openings, slips on shifting (engine speeds up), then either your throttle position switch is misadjusted, the transmission is worn and leaking internally, the oil filter is plugged, the fluid burned (worn-out), the clutch linings coated with varnish (from infrequent oil changes) or the valve body is malfunctioning for some reason.

Change the fluid. Add one pint of Berrymans Transmission cleaner and seal conditioner--run it easy for a week, re-drain and refill with DEXRON III --not synthetic--most DEXRON III fluids already have as much as 50% 'synthetic' base oil in them to meet the very low temperature viscosity requirements. What you are trying to do is clean off the clutches, clean out the valve body, and renew the friction modifier additive package. IF the shifts are not velvety smooth on lock-up, add one pint of LUBE GUARD RED. Do not confuse 'smooth lock-up' with 'firm shifts'. DO NOT ADD LUBE GUARD BLACK trying to get 'firm shifts'. To get 'firmer shifts' you will need to increase the transmission 'line pressure'. There are after-market spring/parts kits to do this. Use at your own risk. You DO NOT want to create harsh clutch lock-up under any condition--the metal parts will not survive.

2.) Maybe I am skeptical to the extreme, but I don't think Lucas (whose base is gum?) helped anything. I remember stories about used car salesmen putting sawdust in automatics so they would shift smoother which they did for a while then cratered a few weeks later. Kind of like saying butter is good for the arteries.

3.) I can't believe that hurt anything, especially if you have the B&M auxiliary ATF cooler installed, especially if running M1 ATF. Bets are off with Lucas in there. In fact, climbing in 3rd is better than in D with TC locked.

Early Q45 transmissions from LA were almost all cooked by the drive to Vegas at high speeds due to heat and inadequate early heat exchangers. The 1994 and later G50 dual heat exchangers and external ATF filter were marked improvements, but the additional auxiliary ATF cooler is a must in hill, mountains, high heat or high speed.
Modified by maxnix at 3:44 PM 4/29/2009

Some interesting info on Valvoline MaxLife ATF:

Valvoline letter

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

THOMAS R. SMITHTechnical Director, Valvoline BrandFebruary 10, 2009To Whom It May Concern:MaxLife ATF is a full synthetic automatic transmission fluid designed to meet the needs of the broadest range oftransmission designs. MaxLife ATF recommendations are based on a combination of formal OEM approvals,field testing and laboratory testing.Valvoline MaxLife ATF carries the following formal OEM approvals:• Voith H55.6335.33 (G607)

• Allison C-4

• Volvo STD 1273.41 (Pending)

Use of MaxLife ATF in transmissions calling for the above specifications is fully supported by the by bothValvoline and the respective transmission/vehicle manufacturer.

Valvoline recommends MaxLife ATF in a broad range of transmissions beyond those for which we have formal OEM approval. The list below is just a sample of applications where Valvoline supports the use of MaxLife ATF. Valvoline has conducted in-house testing, independent lab testing and field-testing to support MaxLife ATF performance in these transmissions; however, it is important to note that the respective vehicle manufacturers have neither evaluated nor approved MaxLife ATF in these applications.• Allison TES 389

• Allison TES 295 (extended drain with appropriate used oil sampling)

• Audi G-052-025-A2, G-052-162-A1

• BMW LT71141 or LA2634 fluids

• Ford MERCON®• Ford FNR5

• Ford MERCON® V

• Ford MERCON® SP

• MERCON® LV

• GM 9986195

• GM DEXRON® II, III and VI

• Honda/Acura ATF-Z1 (except in CVTs)

• Hyundai

• JWS 3309

• KIA SP-II and SP-III Fluids

• KIA Red 1

• MAN 399 Type F

• Mazda M-V

• Mercedes Benz Sheet 236.x (except 236.12 and 236.20)

• Mercedes Benz NAG-1

• MOPAR AS68RC ATF

• Mitsubishi Diamond SP-II or SP-III

• Nissan Matic-D, Matic-J, Matic-K, and Matic-S

• Subaru ATF

• Subaru ATF-HP

• Toyota / Lexus Type T, T-III or T-IV

• Toyota WS

• Voith H55.6336.33 (G1363)

• Volvo 1161521 and 1161540

• VW TL52162

• ZF TE-ML-14B, 16L and 17C

• ATF 3403 M115Valvoline stands behind all of its products, including MaxLife ATF. Use of MaxLife ATF in transmissions where recommended by Valvoline WILL NOT void the vehicle’s warranty. Vehicle manufacturers are restricted by federal law from including the requirement of the use of a specific brand or trade name of product or service as a condition of their warranty. The following is an extract from the Federal Trade Commission’s web site on interpretation of the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act: "Tie-In Sales" Provisions Generally, tie-in sales provisions are not allowed. Such a provision would require a purchaser of the warranted product to buy an item or service from a particular company to use with the warranted product in order to be eligible to receive a remedy under the warranty. The following are examples of prohibited tie-in sales provisions. In order to keep your new Plenum Brand Vacuum Cleaner warranty ineffect, you must use genuine Plenum Brand Filter Bags. Failure to have scheduled maintenance performed, at your expense, by the Great American Maintenance Company, Inc., voids this warranty.\

Valvoline has conducted extensive testing and has a long history of successful use of MaxLife ATF in a broad range of applications. In the unlikely event that you or your customer experiences any transmission damage while using MaxLife ATF in a Valvoline recommended application, please contact Valvoline at 1-800-Team-VAL for assistance.

While MaxLife ATF is designed to meet the special needs of higher mileage transmissions, new transmissions can also benefit from its enhanced oxidation protection, shear stability, seal compatibility, wear protection and antishudder protection. Many consumers have chosen to take advantage of this level of performance in newer transmissions.

Valvoline currently does not recommend MaxLife ATF where certain specific low viscosity ATFs are called for.These include Mercedes Benz NAG-2, ZF Lifeguard 6 and 6 Plus, and AUDI G055-162-A6 and G055-005-A2 applications. Valvoline does not recommend MaxLife ATF for use in most continuously variable transmissions (CVTs) unless specifically noted nor in automatic transmissions where Ford Type F fluids are recommended.

Sincerely,

QuickTime™ and aTIFF (Uncompressed) decompressorare needed to see this picture.Thom SmithTechnical Director, Valvoline BrandAshland Consumer Markets

When I first got my Q, the trans malfunction was on also, it was for shift solenoid B. Had amco flush trans and replaced solenoid valve. Trans shifts weren't smooth. When I replaced external filter it was so much smoother. I think filter was clogged.(not enough pressure for solenoids) Give it a shot it could it may help.

I bought an external filter from IOS a couple of weeks ago ($90) but haven't had a chance to put it in. Maybe this weekend.

Car will change gears alot smoother. I had mines a while before I installed it also. replace clamps stock ones sucks, will not tighten enough. There was some oil on the lines , now nice and dry.

And in terms of ATF, keep it simple: Just Valvoline Max Life. I have had great luck with it. And as per other Nissan forums, it appears that this is what the dealers use when Dexron is recommended.

Actually the dealers use Nissanmatic formulations.

The advantage of M1 ATF is that Q45tech and TexasOil have determined how to modify it with Lubeguard Red to mimic the behavior of the Nissan matic ATF.

By the way, taking your car to AAMCO for any transmission work is like going to the undertaker for heart surgery. Not a wise thing to do.


Modified by maxnix at 7:22 AM 8/29/2009

But how come the dealers don't sell Nissanmatic ATF? When I asked for it at the dealer, they recommended using any Dexron type of ATF...; they even said they get it in bulk. When an Infiniti dealer services the transmission do they actually bill you for Nissanmatic ATF?

As per the experience this guy had (link below), the Infiniti dealer used Valvoline Max Life....(and has been doing it for 4+years).

http://g35driver.com/forums/g3....html

mike7401 wrote:...replace clamps stock ones sucks, will not tighten enough. There was some oil on the lines , now nice and dry.

Are you referring to the two clamps in the middle by chance? I just repaired a drip in the PS return hose and these clamps were maxxed out and still leaked.

Q45tech wrote:If you over do it with Lubeguard you can drain the pan twice and get the concentration down. Better to not waste the product initially and then add the other half a year later.

I'd used Lubeguard Red on the last 90Q with good success and followed your recommendation then to add one ounce for each quart drained. Did it 3 times. The bottles are only 10 ounces and the no shift condition on the 94Q called for drastic measures as a last resort. It cost me $11.

I will take your advice though and do a drain and fill this weekend to dilute it a bit. Thanks for the heads up.

Yes those are the clips, not only do they not tighten properly, they can puncture the hoses

mike7401 wrote:Yes those are the clips, not only do they not tighten properly, they can puncture the hoses

Only if they are mis-assembled in the former case and only if the hoses have failed in the latter case.

Did you replace external filter and how does the trans feel

I did replace the external filter and did a drain and refill last weekend and yes, the shifts are definately smoother. It's been a few weeks since the Lubeguard was added and still no shifting issues or warning messages.

Out of curiosity, what kind of ATF did you use, and how much of the (red) Lubegard did you add?

The shop I use did a BG flush and exchange a couple of years ago and replaced the dino ATF with Valvoline Max Guard Synthetic ATF. I hadn't put in any additives since then, only DIY drain and fill with Mobil 1 ATF, probably 5 or 6 times ($$$). Five or six weeks ago I finally added the 10 oz. bottle of Lubeguard Black (one oz. per gallon of capacity) and the problems cleared up a few weeks later.

Apparently there's some debate whether Lubeguard red or black was the proper additive. I added the black since I had synthetic ATF.

If you're having hard shifting and slipping problems and have clean fluid go out on a limb and try a bottle of Lucas Transmission Treatment. I've used it on two Q's with good success. Just don't tell anyone here on NICO until it works.

elwesso wrote:....I suppose the first step would be to try and check the revolution sensor before you replace it... AT-81......Diagnostic procedure 8 is a good place to start too.. I would suspect TPS or revolution sensor based on reading thru it briefly.

UPDATE- Multiple fluid changes didn't completely cure my no shift problem so I finally followed Wes' advice, jacked the Q up on all 4's and got under the car to ohm test the revolution sensor. It was measuring in the 1000's and should have been at about 575 ohms resistance. I got the right part the first time from IOS by supplying them the part number thanks to Lino and Paul. ($133 revolution sensor, $3 oring)

I took the Q to my trusted shop to have the sensor installed and provided copies of the FSM pages to show it's location and R&R instructions. Total labor was .7 hour and he was able to install without removing the exhaust pipe and disconnecting the driveshaft (as the FSM instructed). Shifts are very smooth and predictable now and it's nice to accelerate away in traffic and not have to look for a safe place to pull over when it doesn't shift. No Transmission Malfunction warning either.



We see a lot of trannys go bad and get tossed and I'm wondering how many get junked because 1) internal solenoids are gummed up from lack of fluid changes and/or, 2) the revolution sensor, turbine revolution sensor, or inhibitor switch has failed. These are all the external sensors and each can be easily checked with an ohmmeter at the connector bundle near the tranny mount.

MinisterofDOOM wrote:

Congratulations. A lot depends on maintenance and owner's fault tolerance.

goody94q45 wrote: We see a lot of trannys go bad and get tossed and I'm wondering how many get junked because 1) internal solenoids are gummed up from lack of fluid changes and/or, 2) the revolution sensor, turbine revolution sensor, or inhibitor switch has failed. These are all the external sensors and each can be easily checked with an ohmmeter at the connector bundle near the tranny mount.

If one sensor was out of spec like yours, Would the transmission malfunction come on the display?

And how many BG flushes or 2.5 min drain and refills would it take to completely clean the transmission?

Mike how were the connectors on yours, Were they hard to disconnect?

Paul Wall wrote: If one sensor was out of spec like yours, Would the transmission malfunction come on the display?

Yes. For the last month the TRANNY MALFUNCTION warning was coming on every time the engine was started and more random before that. Every time I checked the codes it came up with code 1- Revolution Sensor. Most all of the self-dignostic codes that could come up (94FSM page AT41) are related to individual sensors and there's a test procedure in the FSM for each one. Most of the tests only involve measuring ohms or voltage at the connector on the tranny.

Paul Wall wrote: ......And how many BG flushes or 2.5 min drain and refills would it take to completely clean the transmission?

I had a shop do a BG flush a couple of years ago for hard shift issues but since the trip to Yosemite I've drained and refilled 3 1/2 qts. at least 5 or 6 times and added Lubeguard at least 3 of these times. Do the math and it would take 8-10 drain and fills to get above the 90% new fluid level. My fluid is like new, all the gunk is out of the internal solenoids and now that the sensor is fixed it's shifting great.

Paul Wall wrote: .......Mike how were the connectors on yours, Were they hard to disconnect?

After 15 years of gathering road grime, yes, they were very difficult to disconnect. I used a pair of needle nose pliers and squeezed the clip.