91 240sx ignition relay sticking? idiot lights stay on

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RB_Seth
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 10:39 am
Car: 92 240sx RB25
91 240sx LT1
95 240sx 280k mile DD

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Hi, I'm having this problem with my 91 coupe - when i turn the key off / remove the key sometimes certain idiot lights stay on ( brake, check engine, seat belt, and the open door light, the turn signals and rear window defroster will also work when these lights stay on). The car is all stock except that i just did a 5spd swap on it, the car has HUD which was not working until i replaced the capisator in the cluster. Car has 127k miles on it. To me it sounds like a relay is sticking, so after searching for a while i found that all of these items (turn signals, rear defroster and cluster) get their power from the brown ignition relay under the drivers side behind that fuse panel - i swapped this relay out with two of my other cars and they are doing the same thing, if i tap on the relay all the lights go out and it works properly. Could this be a loose or poor ground connection somewhere? If so where should i look, theres not much room to follow the wires behind there. I don't remember the car doing this before the 5spd swap but i hadn't touched it much before i started that either. I unplugged the lower harness and undid everything i changed except for the trans so I don't think its something that i could have caused... Sorry for the long post Thanks for any help!


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SlidewaysScott
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Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 2:12 pm
Car: 1990 240sx hatch, 1995 240sx sr20det

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Seth...I've got the answer...it's really simple too. Basically all you need to do is stop being a va-jay-jay and finish the rb25 and 26. Problem solved.

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RB_Seth
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 10:39 am
Car: 92 240sx RB25
91 240sx LT1
95 240sx 280k mile DD

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...this comming from the kid with a blown up ess rrrr in his garage.... and yea, i'm buying more parts for the 26 soon anyways, but that doesn't help THIS CAR! lol

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RB_Seth
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Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 10:39 am
Car: 92 240sx RB25
91 240sx LT1
95 240sx 280k mile DD

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morning bumb any ideas?

br0k3n_240
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Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2007 1:58 pm

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im having the exact same problem with my 93 hatch... any help pls?

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Hijacker
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Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 4:57 am
Car: '92 240sx Convertible
'94 F-150
Location: Fredericksburg, VA

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We had a similar issue pop up recently with a CA swapped car. The problem turned out to be someone had accidentally plugged the ignitor and the dropping resistor pack backwards (the plugs were identical). This caused some backfeeding into the ignition relay that kept the relay active, but with only a 5v source doing so. You could tap on it and cause the relay to shut off, or you could put a test light the to circuit and the draw would cause the relay to shut off.

The wire that was specifically causing the backfeed was the red wire at the chassis/EFI plug beside the battery. We pulled just that wire out and the car quit staying on when we pulled the key out. The red was a constant wire (ECU backup power) that had managed to put its voltage into the circuit the black/red wire occupies. That wire circuit powers the ignition relay, so it's easy to see a low voltage source (especially if it was happening after a set of dropping resistors) was keeping the relay on. This won't be your cause since you don't have the same ignitor setup, nor a set of dropping resistors, but I put it up here just to give you an idea of what can cause this.

Also, looking at the power distribution diagram, I see the shift lock control unit is powered by the Black/Red circuit. Given that you just did a 5 speed swap to the car, I wonder if something with the shift lock unit is causing your problem (say you decided to cut/solder some wires to allow it to work and give you your key out instead of just leaving the unit plugged in).

Pull the fuse for the shift lock unit (the one on the bottom right of the in car fuse block) and see if your problem persists. If it does, you have your mysterious gremlin found. The fuse also supplies the ABS unit, ATCU (auto trans computer), inhibitor switch (auto trans thingy), back up lamp, and HICAS warning lamp.

There is a second, under the hood fuse, that supplies constant voltage to the shift lock unit. Since your problem occurs when the ignition switch is turned off, that could be a possibility.

Also, I'm wondering if it's just a bad shift lock unit since your symptoms seem to sound like only a small draw is keeping the relay on. If the shift lock unit or bad wiring were keeping a 12v signal going to the relay, there's nothing you could do to turn it off.

EDIT: I realized I got some lines on the power distro diagram mixed up and edited the post to fix that

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RB_Seth
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 10:39 am
Car: 92 240sx RB25
91 240sx LT1
95 240sx 280k mile DD

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hmmm, i was also thinking that there could be something backfeeding power into the relay, i'm going to see what i can find out with my meter after dinner. As for the fuses i've pulled out each fuse one at a time to see if anything made a difference - nothing did except for the meter fuse, but i have unplugged the automatic seat belt module, HUD, Auto trans ecu, and prolly a few other things that i'm forgetting and so far nothing has helped. I also changed insturment clusters to make sure that it was not the problem as i had to repair it so the HUD would work. I have not cut/spliced any wires doing the 5spd swap, i used a lower harness from a 5spd car - i had that unplugged and it made no change

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Hijacker
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Car: '92 240sx Convertible
'94 F-150
Location: Fredericksburg, VA

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When did the problem start? Was it random or did it happen right after the 5-speed swap?

Right now, I'm starting to suspect a faulty ignition switch. I would rule out frayed wiring first, but the ignition switch does receive a constant power source and it is a key switch to complete circuits, specifically the black/red power circuit.

What you could do is replicate the problem and unplug the ignition switch from under the dash (i think you can unplug it without having to pull the column shroud, just the under dash knee panel). If you have an extra ignition switch, you could actually just plug it in there and see if you have the same issue when you turn it on/off without having to fully remove your switch.

The only other suspect I can come up with is something in the ignition system since it uses the black/red wire as a power source for the ignition coil and the resistor/condenser. Try to eliminate those as possible problems as well.

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RB_Seth
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 10:39 am
Car: 92 240sx RB25
91 240sx LT1
95 240sx 280k mile DD

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haha, My first thought was 'sticking relay', after i changed those and the problem was still there i thought 'ignition switch' i put a known good ignition switch pigtail on and started the car with a screwdriver - problem is still there. I was checking with my dvom last night and found that when it happens there is 3v on the B/R wire (control side power) Also last night when i was checking the relay the EGI? relay started to buzz like it was also being held shut by 3v-5v, i'm gonna check that out tonight some, hopefully it does it again for me. I was looking on the diagram and the turnsignals are also powered by the same source, so i had it doing this and the turn signals on, when i unplug the cluster the turnsignals went out - but it happens with my other cluster plugged in also It may have been doing this before the 5spd swap but im honestly not sure because i never actually drove it - got the car with a blown auto I like your ideas tho Hijacker, thanks

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RB_Seth
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 10:39 am
Car: 92 240sx RB25
91 240sx LT1
95 240sx 280k mile DD

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I got some time tonight, the ignition relay is being held shut with 2.5v, also the EGI relay made the buzzing noise for me again tonight - it is also getting 2.5v with the key off. I pulled out all of the fuses one at a time under the hood and none of them helped except the alt fuse - but that powers so much stuff that it doesnt really help much... I pulled the fuse box by the battery apart and i couldnt see any wires that look frayed or tampered with, i shook/jiggled them and it didnt help. I'm pulling my hair out with these poor wiring diagrams that i have haha - mine didnt even show the egi relay??

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Hijacker
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Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 4:57 am
Car: '92 240sx Convertible
'94 F-150
Location: Fredericksburg, VA

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What wiring diagrams are you using? The factory service manual has some of the best, easy to follow diagrams I've ever used. We have them for the download or you can hop over to http://www.240edge.com

I'm still suspecting faulty ignition equipment at this point. Whatever is backfeeding voltage onto the black/red line is telling the ecu to power up the EGI relay (the black/red powers up from the ignition switch and tells the ecu to turn on, so it completes the ground circuit for the egi relay selenoid and the relay sends power to a lot of different pieces of equipment)

The only hole in my theory is that there's no constant power source going into the ignition equipment. It's all switched power.

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RB_Seth
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Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 10:39 am
Car: 92 240sx RB25
91 240sx LT1
95 240sx 280k mile DD

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Thanks for those! I've been trying to use the terrible diagrams that i found on Alldata (same as the basic power distribution one) I haven't had time to check much because of some other side projects, so back to wiring it is! :-/

br0k3n_240
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Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2007 1:58 pm

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any luck guys? the relay shuts off when that circuit is grounded with the car off. im sure if there is a permanent ground on that circuit something would short since its a b+ wire. im at a loss..... its killing me because its one of the last things i want to fix before i can start driving my newly swapped ca

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RB_Seth
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 10:39 am
Car: 92 240sx RB25
91 240sx LT1
95 240sx 280k mile DD

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Hijacker wrote:We had a similar issue pop up recently with a CA swapped car. The problem turned out to be someone had accidentally plugged the ignitor and the dropping resistor pack backwards (the plugs were identical)
broken 240 - i wonder if that could be the issue with your car too, i still have a 100% stock dohc ka in my car tho, i haven't had much luck or time to work on the car lately tho

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RB_Seth
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 10:39 am
Car: 92 240sx RB25
91 240sx LT1
95 240sx 280k mile DD

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I'm sick of dealing with this, so i've decided to that i'm going to pull the meter fuse and if there is no more draw on my battery i'll put a toggle switch on that fuse so i can shut it off manually

br0k3n_240
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Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2007 1:58 pm

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idk how they could do that my plugs for the ignitor chip arent the same the plug into it has 5 and the plug towards the coil packs only has 4.... could try it ... and pulling the plug for your cluster doesnt work.... i traced a low B+ signal with my testlight to the ignition swith on the back of the cluster and was really p!ssed so i cut it.... battery was still dead two days after... so im wondering if it could be a bad ground somewhere... or possibly not a weak positive signal to the relay... im not sure tho same as you im really fed up with it im probably just gunna throw on a super sweet "anti-theft device" lmfao if you do that aswell could you let me know which wires you tap into for it? save me the hassel of lookin it up on all-data thanks in advanced for all the help... this ones definitly beating me

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RB_Seth
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Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 10:39 am
Car: 92 240sx RB25
91 240sx LT1
95 240sx 280k mile DD

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I was just going to put a switch on the Green wire on the back of the meter fuse since that seems to be the only fuse that this is affecting. I should pull just that fuse and reconnect the battery to double check that the draw is gone. (been disconnected during some body work) no problem about the help, to bad i havent found the actual problem and a fix for it tho...

br0k3n_240
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Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2007 1:58 pm

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so i guess now the problem is intermittent.... or possibly just stopped happening. i have had the ignition switch wire to the idiot lights disconnect figuring it would stop the draw.. i didnt know fi it had actually worked so i reconnected it and now its stopped? doesnt make any sense to me could have been a bad ground somewhere and when i finished hooking all the wires up it stopped? im not sure but if that wire is disconnected none of your instruments will work so make sure its hooked up correctly and wont short.

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RB_Seth
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 10:39 am
Car: 92 240sx RB25
91 240sx LT1
95 240sx 280k mile DD

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Heres an email responce that i got, I haven't tried it yet so i'm not sure if it works or not but its worth a try...

I took half my friggin car apart before I found where the real problem was, the relay you say you smack, is it the one behind the fuse panel? If so keep going, if not then you and I are close to the same page. This is the problem I had on my white coupe, there is a small blue relay next to the huge pin connection board located above the fuse panel, THAT is the relay that was actually sticking, power “bleeds” through it and actually causes the other relay to stick, it takes very little voltage draw to keep a relay open even though it takes the full 12 (depending on the circuit obviously) to open it. I replaced that relay with a scrap yard car’s and it worked fine, on the very next S13, my silver one, I owned I ran into the same problem while I had the motor out and was installing stereo stuff/testing wiring. This made me curious so I actually tracked down all the ground wires and bumped them against the frame, I came to the ground on the alternator and when I grounded it the system shut off, so I went BACK to my white car and checked the ground wire, it seemed brittle and old from the previous owner letting the chassis just sit in their yard for years with no use, I replaced it and also decided to install a grounding kit and I have yet to have another problem. Let me know what you find and I’ll look at my wiring schematics to see if I can help you any further if this doesn’t fix it, I’ll try and dig up some pics of the particular relay I’m talking about.

(this was from R4KA240sx) (i hope it works when i try it lol)

br0k3n_240
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Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2007 1:58 pm

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now that i read that... thats exactly what my problem was... the ground on the cack of the alt is now grounded and i no longer have a problem.... wow thanks to whoeve figured this out and thanks for forwarding that email good find

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RB_Seth
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 10:39 am
Car: 92 240sx RB25
91 240sx LT1
95 240sx 280k mile DD

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that was from R4KA240sx, I did try this on my car and it did not help me lol I did notice that if i left the very small blue relay on the back of that huge connector out that the lights would work properly... Does anyone know what that small blue relay is for?

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Hijacker
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Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 4:57 am
Car: '92 240sx Convertible
'94 F-150
Location: Fredericksburg, VA

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That little blue relay is the bulb check relay. We had traced our CA sticking problem to that originally. But in the long run, it was the backwards plugs.

The bulb check relay tends to be an issue if you get moisture in the cabin. It sits in such a place that moisture can seep in through the grommet for the hood release cable (if it's damaged/ripped/cut) and will cause corrosion on the relay.

disepyon
Posts: 38
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2007 2:11 pm
Car: S13

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hey guys i just solved my problem of this problem, after reading this thread. thanks to you guys i am now happy.

what i did was switch the two brown relays (the one on the fuse block and the other on the giant plug connector). after that my problem went away. so im guessing now all i have to do is find another good relay just like these.

my problem was that when i turn the key to ignition on position then turn off and take key out, i sill had power (windows worked, and the red warning lights on my gauge cluster stayed on). SO i guess my problem was a relay that went bad.




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RB_Seth
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 10:39 am
Car: 92 240sx RB25
91 240sx LT1
95 240sx 280k mile DD

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Cool, I'm glad this has helped some people. Just a little update - i haven't had any battery draw problems since i took the bulb check relay out, although i think i have a problem with a ground wire for my cluster... that's a different story tho lol

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AxiOn419
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Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 5:52 pm
Car: 1991 240sx SE Super-Hicas w/ RB20DET
Contact:

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I am having this exact same problem in my s13. I swapped an rb20 into it and ever since I keep getting dash lights that are staying on when I remove the key. In order to get them to turn off, I have to disconnect the ground on my battery for half a second and then you can hear the relay click off. Really annoying. Also, sometimes when it sticks, if I shut my driver side door hard enough it will fix the issue and it seems that in hot weather, it does not stick nearly as much as it did when it was really cold outside. It is a very strange problem I have had no idea how to resolve it. Glad to see I am not the only one.

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masterdisaster
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Car: 1991 JDM 180SX

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Bringing this thread back to life after many months lool

i passed by my friends garage and he was having this problem

the car is a 1989 Jdm Ca18det powerd Silvia

so all the talk about problems after a engine or tranni swap don't apply here.

Compared to ohter people here. the alt light and engine lights don't come on @ all, and can't start the car.

1- EGI relay, EGI Pump relay where buzzing all the time when battery was connected. and some under the dash.

2- completely removed the turbo timer and wiring

3-the relays stoped buzzing when the battery was connected.

4- buzzing starts when u turn the lights on.

5- buzzing get worse when the key is in the on position and egi pump, egi relay start clicking.

Modified by masterdisaster at 6:13 PM 3/8/2009
Modified by masterdisaster at 6:13 PM 3/8/2009

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LongIsland240
Posts: 118
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 7:19 am
Car: 92 S13 Hatch

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I'm going to add myself to the pile, having the same problem.

disepyon
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Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2007 2:11 pm
Car: S13

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To let others know, I am still having the same problem. So what i posted up before, did not fix my problem.

I did however notice that putting the shifter into reverse made the problem shut off. So for instance when i put the key in the on position then turn the key off and take out, the warning dash lights stay on and i am getting that same buzzing sound everyone else is getting, then i just throw the shifter in reverse and it goes off.

I also discovered that wire pin#24 green wire on the back of the gauge cluster is some how tied in with this problem. When i was doing my type X gauge cluster swap, i noticed that when i did not have this wire connected, the problem did not occur, but when i connected it, the problem occurred. This wire is labeled (IGN) on the gauge cluster circuit, which i guess means ignition.

Now i discovered something else. Since i have a switch for my fuel pump, i can turn it on and turn it off. Now when i have the fuel pump on the buzzing sound happens. However when i have the fuel pump off, the sound does not happen, only the warning dash lights stay on. Not sure why this is happening.

So from my information, maybe someone might know.

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volcomskater773
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Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 11:10 pm
Car: S14

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had the same problem but mine turned out to be a wire crossed on either the starter or the alternator i cant remember. check those wires.

Sam French
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Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2007 5:06 am

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Well I am in the same boat too. Mine buzzes and the engine cuts out, sometimes cuts off and I can hear the relay buzz. Also headlights are very dimm. My car is a 1991. Last year I put a new starter and alternator on it. I also redone the ground I got the battery and fuse box on the same ground by the strut on the driver side fenderwell. Sometimes it will just click and not even turn over. I put electro grease in the connector going to the starter. I have done no mods and did any kind of rewiring. Relay even buzzes when the key is off.I got a new one on order. I will look with a multimeter this weekend. I will check the pins with the key on and in on position. Thank You Sam


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